Kettlebell S&S avoiding the glycolytic system

[Anna C]

@Mark Kidd here is an example of what you get. This is using a Polar H7 strap (about $50) and the Polar Beat app (free) installed on my phone, and then captured from the Polar Flow site. Sometimes I look at the phone display during the session, and sometimes I just have it recording and look at it later.

In this session I'm doing snatches; 5R, rest, 5L, rest, etc. Work, recover, work recover. The two high peaks I did 10 snatches instead of 5, HR goes much higher. This was with 24kg; I've been doing heavy snatch protocols since May of this year. That last peak I was doing double jerks with 12kgs but probably 10 or reps in a row, just practicing those. So you can see the longer work sets get my HR up higher, no doubt more glycolytic.

I think if you want to use a HR monitor, I'd recommend first just record a normal training session and see what you get. Armed with some baseline information, you can then use HR to guide any adjustments in your training approach to support your goals.

 

[User 6372]

@Anna C

Ok. I found one of those on Amazon. Good to know. But is there anything "wrong" with 15 seconds of work and 45 rest (provided you pass the talk test)?

@Steve Freides

I looked at them 5 years ago and they were pretty basic. I guess times have changed.

 

[offwidth]

@Anna C

Ok. I found one of those on Amazon. Good to know. But is there anything "wrong" with 15 seconds of work and 45 rest (provided you pass the talk test)?

@Steve Freides

I looked at them 5 years ago and they were pretty basic. I guess times have changed.

Talk test and nasal breathing...
I rarely use my HRM anymore outside of running and riding. Whenever I do use it during swings it almost always validates pretty close to what I feel.

 

[User 6372]

Talk test and nasal breathing...
I rarely use my HRM anymore outside of running and riding. Whenever I do use it during swings it almost always validates pretty close to what I feel.

That is why I am wondering, how much does the average over the hill guy (like me) really benefit from all these new protocols. I would love to get my SFG1. I'm not sure I have the recovery capabilities.

 

[offwidth]

average over the hill guy

Seriously?
What hill?
And you're probably not average if you found your way to Strong First either...

I would recommend at least giving it a try

 

[Anna C]

But is there anything "wrong" with 15 seconds of work and 45 rest (provided you pass the talk test)?

I could answer that question a lot better if I saw your HR graph Do you feel recovered and ready for the next set? Does it feel like your HR has come down? Does your breathing slow back down to almost normal? And, here's a biggie -- if you give yourself more rest (let's say 60 seconds), do you feel an improvement in the power of your next set?

There are several advantages that you get from giving yourself enough recovery, and the longer you do train like this (weeks, months, years) the more it matters. 1) more power in each work set, so you're getting more power development and nailing better technique; 2) possibly more aerobic system development by allow your aerobic system to replenish your alactic or PCr "quick fuel" between sets, rather than relying on glycolysis, 3) less stress for your body by less anerobic glycolysis; your training sessions are less draining; you feel more refreshed afterwards, and recover better. Oh, and you don't stink as bad after training from all the crazy sweat.

Thinking towards SFG I, you might like my article on prepping for that.

 

[User 6372]

Seriously?
What hill?
And you're probably not average if you found your way to Strong First either...

I would recommend at least giving it a try

Oh I will. I just know I am not where I need to be.

 

[User 6372]

I could answer that question a lot better if I saw your HR graph Do you feel recovered and ready for the next set? Does it feel like your HR has come down? Does your breathing slow back down to almost normal? And, here's a biggie -- if you give yourself more rest (let's say 60 seconds), do you feel an improvement in the power of your next set?

There are several advantages that you get from giving yourself enough recovery, and the longer you do train like this (weeks, months, years) the more it matters. 1) more power in each work set, so you're getting more power development and nailing better technique; 2) possibly more aerobic system development by allow your aerobic system to replenish your alactic or PCr "quick fuel" between sets, rather than relying on glycolysis, 3) less stress for your body by less anerobic glycolysis; your training sessions are less draining; you feel more refreshed afterwards, and recover better. Oh, and you don't stink as bad after training from all the crazy sweat.

Thinking towards SFG I, you might like my article on prepping for that.

See I have always more or less when working out, do the exercise, let my heart rate return normal, next set repeat and rinse. Using Strongfirst and Agastu methods (my kettlebell instructor before he gave it up), I have made gains I only dreamed about before in like half a year.

So I dunno. I think just tweeking things a bit (I use to do 10 reps both sides then rest), maybe see where that takes me.

Definitely love the every rep feels like the first mentality.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Mark Kidd, in a nutshell, the idea is to have your HR be as high as possible without being too high - this for the desired training effect. So, is 15/45 correct for you? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you're lucky and it's close, but maybe a two weeks from now it's not because you've improved.

Best is really to go by feel, and IMHO, monitoring your HR is third best, the talk test is second best and nasal breathing for recovery is best.

-S-

 

[JamesO]

@Anna C, I really like that graph. Was it generated by the native app for your heart rate monitor, or is it a third party app?

 

[pet']

Hello,

From my humble experience, I’ve never used in HR monitor. I do not say it is good or bad using one or not. It is just a tool. As such, the only thing is to use it well.

I’ve always used the following method:

during swings or “cardio” effort, I rest when I need it. I don’t "intellectualize". Then, due to regular training, I’ve noticed rests are shorter. Then I’ve cut some rest periods. It is very progressive, may be not optimal, sure it is long, but sure it works. My talk test: reading a book between sets and record the reading. Pretty low tech approach.

I always recover with ab / diaphragmatic breathing. I only train by “feeling my body” because I like the fact of being conscious of myself. I do not use technologies in training to be resilient.

Currently, at rest (sitting in a chair at work), I have an HR about 60- 63 bpm. However may be apnea helps me a little...

Kind regards,

Pet’

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C, I really like that graph. Was it generated by the native app for your heart rate monitor, or is it a third party app?

The graph is from Polar Flow. So the phone app is actually Polar Beat (I edited the post above), then you log in to Polar Flow online for Diary, further analysis, etc. Both are free, so all you have to do is buy a bluetooth Polar HR strap like the H7.

I use a Garmin for bike rides and used to use the Garmin for kettlebell, but I like Polar better overall for kettlebell now.

 

[offwidth]

There are several advantages that you get from giving yourself enough recovery, and the longer you do train like this (weeks, months, years) the more it matters.

It's my belief that what Anna said here is key to the whole enterprise. For anyone taking the long view this is the way to go in my opinion. Because if you do it right the years stretch into decades and quarter centuries and beyond. I am well into my fifth decade of actually training for s&@#; ah... if I only knew then... Hindsight....

 

[pet']

Hello,

Would not it be a training habit ?

If one uses to work with HR monitor may be it will be difficult to work without then, and vice versa ?

I simply ask because I don’t know anybody who worked without it and have started to use it after. The contrary is also true. Does it “improves” training ?

I ask with a full respect for those who use it !

Kind regards,

Pet’

 

[krg]

One of the fun benefits of using a HRM is that it gives you solid data to underpin a lot of received wisdom.

For example you can absolutely see the effect that active rest has on your HR compared to just flopping down and resting on a bench.

I wouldn't be a slave to avoiding glycolysis though - walking up a long flight of stairs can be pretty glycolytic but no-one would say take the lift.

However, if I try and train lots of HiiT sessions then I just crumble after a couple of weeks. e.g. Having done a 5 heavy swings EMOTM protocol under Al Ciampa's instruction early in the year I really thought it worked well, even 60 minute sessions with 40 kg bell were survivable. In contrast we then tried some 'glycolytic peaking' (sets where you swing until you can't swing anymore) a few sessions of that and I felt like **** and didnt want to train at all.

What works best for me is training at an intensity that feels sustainable. S+S as written delivered that up to 32 kg for me - 40 kg swings in sets of 10 leave me feeling beaten up but the same total volume in sets of 5 are just fine.

 

[pet']

Hello,

As glycolytic / anti-glycolytic activities, what I enjoy doing is :
My daily 100 heavy swings, on an "easy" rythm.
HIIT twice a week (either on burpees or swimming). If I do more HIIT, it tends not to be sustainable. I looked for long time before finding my "right sweet spot".

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

Would not it be a training habit ?

If one uses to work with HR monitor may be it will be difficult to work without then, and vice versa ?

I simply ask because I don’t know anybody who worked without it and have started to use it after. The contrary is also true. Does it “improves” training ?

It helps me fine tune "going by feel." When the HR and "by feel" don't match, I ask myself, "What did I miss?" And that helps me tune in better.

In that way it's much the same as HRV. Measuring Heart Rate Variability every morning with the Elite HRV app has helped me tune into training readiness and recovery. I used to pay attention to body fatigue and soreness to guage my training readiness. The HRV measures helped me see that there's a lot more to pay attention to. Now in addition to those things, I tune into my attitude and clarity of thinking, how refreshed and energetic I feel, and how responsive and coordinated my movements are.

So for both HR duirng training and HRV to guage readiness for training, I could do without them both now, but I am a lot smarter in my training for what they have taught me. I also feel that they continue to provide me good info. Plus I'm a data junkie, so I just love that sort of thing anyway. Not everyone is like me that way.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Anna C
I understand: you use it as a tool to optimize your training and having a more precise (and objective) understanding of what is going on “inside”. I am sure it is a smart approach, and facts show me that you have progressed using it !

I admit sometimes, I feel "a bit more tired" than the usual (a slight difference but nothing significant, no injury risk). Thus I train as the usual but training seems a little more difficut. I adapt if fatigue does not disappear.

So I sometimes "hijack" my mind to work out. May be it would be smarter to adapt it in these cases, through data analisis.

Plus I'm a data junkie, so I just love that sort of thing anyway. Not everyone is like me that way

May be I have kind of “blockage” because I work in data all day long ah ah. Who knows, maybe should I try.

Kind regards,

Pet’

 

[candelas]

For those interested, here's the article where they apply HR to S&S.

Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training

At the end of the article, they comment on what we are discussing here.

"Some folks begin to see improvements right away; others will require more time. It is unlikely you will progress all the way to the “sinister” goal by following your HR in training. Occasionally, you will need to compress your rest periods and go glycolytic."

Regards,

 

[Anna C]

My HR doesn't stay under MAF when I do S&S swings (10 swings per set) especially if I go moderate to heavy.

Below is this past Saturday, 10x10 1H swings with 24kg (moderate-heavy for me). My MAF of 180-age+5 would be 136, and my HR goes consistently to 145-147. In this session I was using breath timing for recovery; 10 breaths after first 4 sets, 14 breaths for the rest.

What's my point? Just that I don't worry about where the HR goes on the peak. I do believe in full recovery between sets for most sessions (except the occasional every 2 weeks or so pushing the pace on the swings or something else). And I think HR provides very useful information, and most of the information in that article is good. Al no longer uses the MAF formula as a hard ceiling on kettlebell work, and I've been doing his protocols for a year an a half now, plus an aerobic base training here recently, so if it were possible for me to do S&S swings under MAF I think I would have attained it already. It's just not something that will happen for me unless I swing super-light (16kg or less), and I don't see any reason to do that. Usually what I do is swing (or snatch, or C&J, etc.) in shorter sets, such as 20 x 5, which is also described in the article. In that case my peaks are lower; but again, that's not my primary concern. More interested in recovery for each set, overall trend within the session (not trending up), and improved dynamics over time (same work with the same or lower HR, improved recovery, improved endurance).

Link on Polar; screen capture: