S&S avoiding the glycolytic system

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
I think we'd all agree that the MAF heart rate prediction is just that, a prediction, a guesstimate, and although I've not seen any science to either support or refute what I'm about to say, I think there is a significant amount of individual variability in this. Since the only way to test it would be very expensive and time-consuming, if it was possible at all, I say go with your gut as @Anna C has done. Your recovery, both short- and long-term, will give you clues as to whether or not you're keeping with the spirit of minimizing the use of the glycolytic system in your training.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
And for whatever reason, we all keep forgetting about this... you very likely just do not fit int0 the predications of the formula. Everyone has to dial themselves in.
 

masa

More than 2500 posts
Im trying to stay away from things that will put too much stress on my joints while I lose weight. I tried some tempo runs last night. Gonna try some rope jumping and see how that feels tomorrow.
Hi @Dan_123, start light with rope jumping and tempo runs. If you have some weight to lose, it might irritate your knees, when going too heavy too soon. When I started to losing weight I did Litvinov sprints between kettlebell swings and some rope jumping for warmup and it made my knees flaring. But we all are individuals though. Still better safe than sorry. That's just my two cents.
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

light with rope jumping and tempo runs. If you have some weight to lose, it might irritate your knees
Very true. It is efficient to lose weight, but also to injure your knees.

I like the concept of "light with rope jumping". An idea: rope jumping during 5 to 10 minutes as a warm-up (so easy rythm). That way you will reap the benefits of rope jumping and will save your knees for the long term.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
Is there some influence of the rest HR ?

What I notice it that if one has a low HR, maybe it is difficult to have a fast progress (at least at the beginning) with MAF.
The MAF formula doesn't take the resting HR into account. I think where the "influence" is (which explains your observation, @pet' ) is that if you have a low resting HR (like in the 50's or below), it means you're likely in pretty good aerobic shape already, and therefore won't see aerobic gains as much as someone who is really lacking in this area.

I almost said "as quickly" instead of "as much " in that last sentence, but it seems there are no quick gains when it comes to aerobic fitness. It takes time... no way around it. Ironically, the higher HR "gains" or "conditioning" that you might get from an intense (glycolytic) cardio-building program come quicker than the low-intensity or LSD aerobic gains, but the fitness base that you gain from LSD is much more health-building and longer lasting. I also believe it can boost your long-term potential performance in all other areas.

I usually credit smart coaching by Al Ciampa for my progress in kettlebells, but he credits my many years of endurance cycling and having a strong aerobic engine. Food for thought...
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

the higher HR "gains" or "conditioning" that you might get from an intense (glycolytic) cardio-building program come quicker than the low-intensity or LSD aerobic gains, but the fitness base that you gain from LSD is much more health-building and longer lasting
That is true.

Before, I ran often (3 times a week, 1h30 each time). I did it again recently without problem even if I do not run anymore. I simply do daily swings.

I also tested myself as a guinea pig: I did a lot of intense glycolytic with Tabata burpees. I noticed a very fast (and great) improve of my cardio. Then I completly stopped to do it for a while (6 weeks). I tested again : I lost a good part of my gains.

Now, I still use intense glycolytic once or twice a week to use different metabolic systems.

I think it support well what you say ;)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Craig Fern

Double-Digit Post Count
I have been following this tread and others regarding aerobic training and using the MAF method and appreciate all the input from everyone.

Here is my question. If someone has a low resting heart rate, can you assume that you have a good aerobic base as I think Anna C said above?

I'm 55 with a resting HR around 46 upon waking in the morning. I strength train 3 or 4 days a week and until recently did HITT type training with the rower, assault bike or KB swings two days a week. Recently because of what I have been reading here, I changed to Kettlebell swings with sets of 10 reps x 12 sets twice a week keeping my HR below 130 (180-55 +5).

I have read several articles recently discussing heart adaptations to exercise and some have suggested that certain types of exercise increase the thickness of the ventricle wall and can produce a low heart rate from that versus increased ventricular chamber size from low steady state work as in MAF training, which will also result in low HR. Several of these articles suggest that an increase in the ventricle chamber size is better for ones cardiovascular health. Although I have not read the book, I think this is what is proposed in Kenneth Jay's book The Cardio Code.

Where do you think kettlebell swings with or without the MAF method fits into all this?

Look forward to your comments.
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

If someone has a low resting heart rate, can you assume that you have a good aerobic base as I think Anna C said above?
I do not know if this is a rule or not but, what I notice is:
I hike and ruck / swim / dive and do apnea and do 100 daily swings and have a pretty low HR
All others hikers I now have a low HR.

HITT type training with the rower, assault bike or KB swings two days a week
I also use HIIT two times a week. I think it helps, to some extents, for cardio activities. However, HIIT gains are lost faster than MAF gains.

Where do you think kettlebell swings with or without the MAF method fits into all this?
In themselves, kettlebells are only a tool. You can use them for HIIT or for MAF. It depends on what you want to do. For instance, I did 10k challenge last year. It is not "HIIT based". My cardio were better and I am sure I can still hit 500 swings. I did also HIIT with swings and put my lungs in fire.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
@Craig Fern I wish I had an answer for you, I have wondered about the same things, especially the heart adaptations. I don't worry about it so much for myself, as I'm pretty confident my heart is healthy, and I don't feel that it's my limiting factor to any degree. But for some people -- and you may be one of them (although I would tend to think your heart is healthy with a resting HR of 46, unless medication influences it) -- heart health really is one of the primary concerns for their exercise program. So it's definitely an important topic and one that I hope will be explored more through research.

For you, I would be curious to know, have you done LSD or endurance activity in past training? Do you have a fairly active lifestyle as far as daily activities? How is your stamina and endurance these days? Has your resting HR always been low?

I do hope that others will weigh in on your questions...
 

Steve W.

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Do you have a fairly active lifestyle as far as daily activities?
A bit of a sidetrack, but something I find interesting:

I once had a physiology professor (Ronald de Meersman, Columbia University Teachers College) who told the class it is hard to do studies involving cardio training in New York City if the study design includes a group of sedentary people. Truly sedentary people in New York City are very hard to find. Nearly everyone walks and climbs stairs enough to exhibit a significantly different level of fitness than is commonly found in sedentary/untrained people in many other places.
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
Interesting, Steve... Yes I suspect that a person's walking, active working, and other low-level activity during the day has a big impact on their aerobic base/health, but is very hard to capture or measure. Then again, fitbits and other wearable devices should make it much easier....
 

offwidth

More than 5000 posts
Here is my question. If someone has a low resting heart rate, can you assume that you have a good aerobic base as I think Anna C said above?
I think I've learned to not assume anything anymore. That being said... I am a few years older than you and have a similar RHR. (48) - I check with a polar hrm, Omron BP monitor, and watch with a sweep second hand, so I am fairly confident with the accuracy. My lowest rate ever recorded was 44, but that was over 40 yrs ago. So I've always had a low RHR. I've also had a long endurance career. Running, cycling, and alpine climbing. So yes I have a low RHR and a reasonable aerobic base. I have training partners however whom I consider have a higher performance engine than I do, yet have much higher resting heart rates. Not sure what it al means...
 

PrimalEndurance

My Third Post
... I'm also trying to do aerobic training on a bike so the goal is to get close to MAF and stay there. I usually can only get to 115bpm my MAF should be 135 and I'm already going fast, near flat out with legs starting to burn.... @Anna C ?
It's very common to find that people have trouble getting to MAF on a bike, even though they might find their HRM beeping after 50m of light running (not saying that is the case for you, but I hear it a lot). That's not necessarily a sign of anything having to do with your aerobic fitness or your resting HR or anything else, it's just because biking is easier metabolically (you have more points of contact, you are assisted by the mechanism and momentum of the bicycle, etc.). I'd expect if you tried another mode of cardio you'd have a much easier time reaching MAF.

As @Boosh32 said, it's not necessary to hit your MAF HR to build your aerobic system. The key is not to exceed it.
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

Maybe there are a lot of factors that have an influence, and which are difficult to quantify:
diet (some eatings have an influence on blood pressure), altitude in which one live (influence on red blood cells), genetics, etc...

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

To give some materials:

Stress can influence heart rate variability and blood pressure:
The effect of mental stress on heart rate variability and blood pressure during computer work
Acute Stress Affects Heart Rate Variability During Sleep : Psychosomatic Medicine
Influence of Mental Stress on Heart Rate and Heart Rate Variability - Springer

Altitude:
ARTICLES | Journal of Applied Physiology

Pollution:
Ambient Pollution and Heart Rate Variability | Circulation

These are a few examples of factors. It underlines the difficulties to create "general rules" about HRV due to the number of environnements that should be tested. It also support @Steve Freides assertion:
the MAF heart rate prediction is just that, a prediction, a guesstimate, and although I've not seen any science to either support or refute what I'm about to say, I think there is a significant amount of individual variability in this
I am sure there are plenty of other study about related factors.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Hello,


That is true.

Before, I ran often (3 times a week, 1h30 each time). I did it again recently without problem even if I do not run anymore. I simply do daily swings.

I also tested myself as a guinea pig: I did a lot of intense glycolytic with Tabata burpees. I noticed a very fast (and great) improve of my cardio. Then I completly stopped to do it for a while (6 weeks). I tested again : I lost a good part of my gains.

Now, I still use intense glycolytic once or twice a week to use different metabolic systems.

I think it support well what you say ;)

Kind regards,

Pet'
My running hypothesis is that cardio is not just cardio... faster muscle fibers gain and lose aerobic performance at a different rate than slower fibers. Moreover, less systemic adaptations take place with fast fiber aerobic improvements because of the type of training required to elicit this improvement. To say you lost or gained "cardio" is not the entire discussion.

If someone has a low resting heart rate, can you assume that you have a good aerobic base as I think Anna C said above?
Not exactly... it is relative to the individual.

Where do you think kettlebell swings with or without the MAF method fits into all this?
Exactly where you placed it in your post: LV wall thickness... which I've never understood to drop resting HR; if anything, this change should "increase" resting HR. There are many other factors involved with HR output as well.

I also use HIIT two times a week. I think it helps, to some extents, for cardio activities. However, HIIT gains are lost faster than MAF gains.
The very important footnote to this is that you have to have the base fitness level to be able to absorb any high-intensity training for any period of time, even "only" twice per week. It is very strong medicine.

For you, I would be curious to know, have you done LSD or endurance activity in past training? Do you have a fairly active lifestyle as far as daily activities? How is your stamina and endurance these days? Has your resting HR always been low?
I would also ask what you do, if anything, for breathing practice and/or how do you breathe throughout the day. This seems to be a confounder w/r to HR questions.

A bit of a sidetrack, but something I find interesting:

I once had a physiology professor (Ronald de Meersman, Columbia University Teachers College) who told the class it is hard to do studies involving cardio training in New York City if the study design includes a group of sedentary people. Truly sedentary people in New York City are very hard to find. Nearly everyone walks and climbs stairs enough to exhibit a significantly different level of fitness than is commonly found in sedentary/untrained people in many other places.
If you have ever lived in or near this particular city you would observe that even the most seemingly sedentary of folk are anything but. Lots of daily (multiple sessions/day) walking going on there, no matter who you are.

Hello,

To give some materials:

Stress can influence heart rate variability and blood pressure:
The effect of mental stress on heart rate variability and blood pressure during computer work
Acute Stress Affects Heart Rate Variability During Sleep : Psychosomatic Medicine
Influence of Mental Stress on Heart Rate and Heart Rate Variability - Springer

Altitude:
ARTICLES | Journal of Applied Physiology

Pollution:
Ambient Pollution and Heart Rate Variability | Circulation

These are a few examples of factors. It underlines the difficulties to create "general rules" about HRV due to the number of environnements that should be tested. It also support @Steve Freides assertion:


I am sure there are plenty of other study about related factors.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Really great example of contextual thinking... nice work.
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

The very important footnote to this is that you have to have the base fitness level to be able to absorb any high-intensity training for any period of time, even "only" twice per week. It is very strong medicine.
Yes you are right. I built an aerobic base before implementing high-intensity training.

I ran 15km 3 times a week (between 10 and 12km/h).

Then, I slowly introduced jumping rope. Finally, I cut off one running session a week to do 1h jumping rope. At the beginning it was only 15 minutes but it increased progressively.

Then, I cut off running to put daily swings. I still run or swim on "long times". I notice daily swings work very well to maintain aerobic base.

Finally, I added 1 HIIT once a week for a while. Then 2 HIIT sessions.

As you can see, it is very progressive. The whole thing took my 1 year, more or less. I believe more than 2 intensity trainings a week is not sustainable on the long term. On the short term, sure it is if you have a meet, but that is all, IMO. I say that because I trid 3 HIT a week. It is exhausting (2 or three months max, above all if you have another routine aside).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

candelas

Double-Digit Post Count
Hello everyone,

Can we summarize all that have been mentioned here?

For instance:

-Swings for strength and power (also conditioning)
S&S standard: 10L rest, 10R rest, and so on.

-Swings for conditioning
MAF HR. Probably fewer reps than 10 (or lighter bell) staying below 180 - age.

Just an example,my summary is very poor. Perhaps a little bit more of explanation,not much, it's a summary.


Regards,
 
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