Kettlebell S&S, beep tests and vo2max

[ali]

I'm thinking of applying for a job which requires a fitness test including a beep test. I'm 52, the last time I did one was back in PE class at school sometime during the jurassic period. So thought I'd better re-acquaint myself with it before turning up to do a 'real' one to know what to expect. I need to get to 8.8, this is equal to a vo2 max of 42.3. So I only wanted to see if I was up to standard and didn't want to max out in a pool of vomit and hormonal chaos and to walk upright the rest of the day. This I'm glad to say I managed with some in the tank, getting to 9.1, a vo2 max of 45, where it was getting uncomfortable and called it a day, confident, hopefully, of being the standard required on the day, if there is a day.....nothing definite yet. And all this got me thinking....is a beep test an accurate predictor of vo2 max? If it is then it is a fun way to find out, had a blast. I know the only real way is to be in a lab with masks, electrodes and prods and stuff but is there a correlation? By the way, other than walking my dog, the odd maf run here and there, the odd random sprint, this is my recent training....S&S to simple, rop (interrupted due to shoulder tweak), kb strong double front squat with 2x20s, naked warrior progressions, total tension complex with 20s/16s, currently S&S 32 (not going for a 40 yet but can do standards but want to own it) with a naked warrior strength day making 2 x strength, 2 x S&S for about a month. So no direct aerobic work but a good vo2 max nonetheless. Stuff works.

 

[King Cobra Fit]

From what I know the 20 MSR (beep test) is a fairly accurate way of estimating VO2 max. As long as the recording you're using (beeps) is legit and that your distance is truly 20m. We used to use it as part of the Canadian Forces Fitness Test.
Of course with any test that attempts to group large populations into one group there is room for error.

Nice work by the way, getting to a 9! its always nice to get a little validation of the true carry over that KB practice has.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Can someone explain this to me? I read through the Wikipedia article about the beep test, but didn't really understand it.
You continously run that 20m distance and in intervals the time between the beeps decreases right?
If I fail to complete a round before the next beep the test is over.
But what if I just didn't complete the round because I thought that I had more time and not because I wasn't physically able to complete it ? Do you see how much seconds you have left before the next beep?
To complete the first 7 laps (Level 1) in the alotted time you need to keep a 8,5km/h speed. Can I "sprint" the first 7 laps with a 15km/h speed and then just stand there and wait for the next beep?
I hope you understand what I mean.

I have the same issues with the Cooper test. You run for 12min and then you stop. What if after I stop after the 12min and think "Hey this was easy I could have gone much faster".
Back in school I had this experience with 5K runs. At the end of the run I always had enough in the tank to almost sprint the last 2 or 3 laps, because I was underpacing the first 3,5-4Km.
It took me somewhere between 5-10 5Ks to figure out the right pace to reach "failure" at the moment when I crossed the finish line.
You need to have experience with certain times and distances to figure out your pace. If you don't have that you'll get inacurrate results, because you either underpaced or overpaced yourself.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Can someone explain this to me? I read through the Wikipedia article about the beep test, but didn't really understand it.
You continously run that 20m distance and in intervals the time between the beeps decreases right?
If I fail to complete a round before the next beep the test is over.
But what if I just didn't complete the round because I thought that I had more time and not because I wasn't physically able to complete it ? Do you see how much seconds you have left before the next beep?
To complete the first 7 laps (Level 1) in the alotted time you need to keep a 8,5km/h speed. Can I "sprint" the first 7 laps with a 15km/h speed and then just stand there and wait for the next beep?
I hope you understand what I mean.

I have the same issues with the Cooper test. You run for 12min and then you stop. What if after I stop after the 12min and think "Hey this was easy I could have gone much faster".
Back in school I had this experience with 5K runs. At the end of the run I always had enough in the tank to almost sprint the last 2 or 3 laps, because I was underpacing the first 3,5-4Km.
It took me somewhere between 5-10 5Ks to figure out the right pace to reach "failure" at the moment when I crossed the finish line.
You need to have experience with certain times and distances to figure out your pace. If you don't have that you'll get inacurrate results, because you either underpaced or overpaced yourself.

I hear your frustration. These field tests are only approximations of VO2max based on the performances of however many subjects with a lab tested VO2max that were observed performing the test that created the original test standards (I have no idea). Field testing is much easier and inexpensive for large groups of people, so they are used often in those settings.

Now, being concerned with VO2max as a meaningful metric is another matter altogether.

 

[ali]

@Kettlebelephant .......I know what you mean and the reason why I did it was to experience what to do, what it was like so I'm more prepared for a real test. Early on, the first few levels, probably a fast walk is suffice or a slow, slow jog. So plenty of time to easy run, turn and wait for you to judge pace. Within each level the number of shuttles increase, so probably about level 4/5 you are running at a reasonable pace, remembering though that you need to slow up to turn, so the pace you run is really dependent on a slightly faster pace before slowing up. The idea is if you miss 2 beeps, the game is up. If you miss one and not fatigued, just underestimated the pace, then it is easy to catch up.....not so as the levels increase!! I had a reserve remaining when I stopped as I didn't want to max out.....and maxing out apparently is the measure for vo2 max.
Interesting reading all the charts and stuff since......my score on the beep test corresponds to a 45 min 10k. I ran a 10k in that exact time about 3 years ago, some months after did a tough mudder thing and since have done little running as mentioned. So did all that running influence it, eventhough it was 3 years ago? Did that base give me a platform to build kb practice on.....and that training has maintained my aerobic base or even improved it? Who knows, all I know is I'm where I need to be and that's fine!
And is there a carry over?...a cyclist may have a high vo2 max but runs like a crab, so is vo2max dependent on the activity and skill at that activity?

 

[King Cobra Fit]

@Kettlebelephant If I remember correctly, the 20 MSR starts at 8.5 KPH and increases 0.5 KPH every stage or every Min. You are generally given One "warning" per level to learn the pace, "when you can no longer reach the line twice in a row, leave the testing area" is the exact wording on the instructions we had......I've heard it many times in my years of testing CF members with that test. you can sprint to one end and wait for the next beep, but im my experience, that isn't the most efficient way to go about it. If you keep the pace for each stage and basically use the change of direction each time to bound into the next length its better than stopping and starting at each length.

@ali you're totally right, skill at an activity, or said another way, efficiency with a particular activity could effect a persons "score" when VO2 max is being indirectly (or directly for that matter) tested at a particular event.

Now, being concerned with VO2max as a meaningful metric is another matter altogether

I think this has a specific time and place, which isn't very often and not really practical for the "general population".

There is a reason we don't use this test anymore. However the new test that was developed still has a connection to VO2 max and I think the only real reason is for defensibility in court. If someone were to dispute the test there would be a "leg to stand on" in a reason one person is "fitter" than the other, instead of completely seemingly arbitrary numbers . It's actually kind of interesting but I could be wrong though

 

[Anthony.Thompson]

Hi Ali

first time on the forum in a while, I recently have went through the police recruitment process here in Scotland, just got my provision offer of appointment.

They use a 15m beep test/MSFT and 9.2 is the minimum for the under 30s males ( I had to score 8.8 as I' am 32). However the recruitment team are very clear the everyone is expected to score better than the minimum and run till failure.

Went a completely different training route did a mix of 5km runs and sprinting. Managed to tweak my hamstring the week before the test, but was able to get a scored 10.1.

I happened get back to some KB training at the weekend and remembered how much I enjoy it, given your experience, I think ill play will more kettle bells and less running .

 

[ali]

Pretty good considering the hamstring tweak. You got what you needed to get. It is a difficult balance....needing to push towards a goal by doing X but X is demanding and not without risk OR doing a slower, steadier approach with a power/strength emphasis which is more sustainable with less injury risk.

 

[King Cobra Fit]

you guys are right on track.

I used to have to do the 20 m beep test annually for my job. I don't run, there are far more enjoyable things for me to spend my time doing. Swings, snatches, C&P, C&J, crawling. I would do all of these things over the year and a few weeks out from test day, maybe fit in one or two runs and then nail the test come test day.

I've read somewhere, "get fit to run, don't run to get fit" and I think that hits on a great point about risk vs reward.
That actually that makes me think of another quote that I'm not sure but I think I may have read somewhere in this community. I use it for the tactical operators that I work with. "what's the greatest ability? Muscular strength, cardio endurance, flexibility....... The greatest ability is availability". If your training hurts you more often than what you're training for, its time to re-evaluate your training methods.

 

[Anthony.Thompson]

I feel my lungs were still in the game but my hamstring wasn't playing anymore. I previously to applying to the police, I avoided running at all costs say for sprints, I not do not hate running as much lol. However the Scottish weather has made it less fun it's current pitch black here in the morning till after 7am.

Think I'll keep one or two runs a week and do S&S style swings most mornings, unless anyone has another suggestions?

 

[Steve Freides]

@Anthony.Thompson, welcome to StrongFirst and our forum.

-S-

 

[taedoju]

you guys are right on track.

I used to have to do the 20 m beep test annually for my job. I don't run, there are far more enjoyable things for me to spend my time doing. Swings, snatches, C&P, C&J, crawling. I would do all of these things over the year and a few weeks out from test day, maybe fit in one or two runs and then nail the test come test day.

I've read somewhere, "get fit to run, don't run to get fit" and I think that hits on a great point about risk vs reward.
That actually that makes me think of another quote that I'm not sure but I think I may have read somewhere in this community. I use it for the tactical operators that I work with. "what's the greatest ability? Muscular strength, cardio endurance, flexibility....... The greatest ability is availability". If your training hurts you more often than what you're training for, its time to re-evaluate your training methods.

Point is i think, most people don't build them self up to running, and don't take coaching. It is like with kettlebells or barbells, if you got a coach and work to it slowly it won't hurt you. Andrew Read got on his blog an article how to ease up to training, i did it all (8 weeks or so ) and never got even a little sore feet... Running puts a lot more stress on the body than lifting weights does.

 

[Anthony.Thompson]

@Steve Freides thanks, been on the forum a while, was even doing Craig's protocol until I separated my shoulder at bjj, then the whole police recruitment thing kicked off and I started focusing on my running/vo2max