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Kettlebell S&S deloading

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Tom Pintaric

Level 4 Valued Member
Hi SF team

Wondering what you guys recommend as a good deloading steps after an intense

S&S 3 month phase. I just achieved simple goal with 32kg bell and I find that continuing with this tempo (lifting 5x per week for a total of 2000 swings) leaves me over trained after 2 weeks. I don't kind monotony of S&S and fully enjoy the lifts and progress..just haven't a hard time tKing break...any recommendations are welcomed thank you.
 
Congratulations on achieving simple! I am far from achieving it, however I am an avid reader. You could for example:
* try something like serious endurance swings with more volume waving: From "Simple" to Serious Endurance | StrongFirst
* just take 2 weeks off
* only use 2-3 heavy sessions per week and fill the rest with for example 24kg shadow swings or rucking. Reread the part in S+S about light days
* split TGU and Swings for awhile, with one day A+A style swings and every other day TGUs
* reduce the daily volume to 50-60% and slowly build up again, in a way that does not build up too much fatigue.
* rest more between sets
* meditate and work on recovery
 
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You could simply back down to 2 sessions per week for a couple of weeks, and then move to 3 S&S sessions per week. Use the in between days for recovery or to work on other strength lifts. Many, many options out there. Listen to your body and follow what feels right for you.
 
You won't lose it if you stay strong in other ways. Cut down S&S to twice a week, and do other exercises you're interested in. I'm doing this nowadays, although keep in mind I do a lot of high level judo.
 
S&S 3 month phase. I just achieved simple goal with 32kg bell and I find that continuing with this tempo (lifting 5x per week for a total of 2000 swings) leaves me over trained after 2 weeks. I don't kind monotony of S&S and fully enjoy the lifts and progress..just haven't a hard time tKing break...any recommendations are welcomed thank you.

Finding the sweet spot with Simple and Sinister is what I love about the program. You can control most of the variables to make sure fatigue doesnt accumulate: frequency, density, volume, weight and so on. I personally dont see the point in reducing to 2/week for more than 1 week. This is what I would do:

  • Reduce TGU frequency to 3/week (unless your TGU lags behind).
  • Swing frequency 4 or 5 per week.
  • Increase swing rest and start the sets on the 1:30, so they take 15 minutes.
  • One of the swing sessions per week use less weight or less volume, about 60-80 total.
These changes should make the sessions a lot easier to recover from. You could do the above and adjust as needed, increasing and decreasing any of the variables, to find your sweet spot.

You could also take an easy week, of only 2/ sessions with very good rest between sets, and the next week start as suggested above. It has worked great for me.

Good luck!
 
What is your goal for the next 2-3 months? Let that serve as a guide..

Oh and congrats on the achievement
 
Just take 1 week off. Maybe just do your warm-up, like goblet squats and halos or whatever you normally do before "the workout".

Then depending on your goal, keep at it. Whether it be continuing with heavier bells or trying something new.

I think it is very healthy to take a break after a milestone.
 
Thank you all. The next goal is to achieve RoP protocol while keeping S&S going. Once RoP is in the bag, complete sinister goal eventually.
So based on your responses, I will keep the next 3 days on active rest. Afterwards I am thinking to do the following with S&S and you can perhaps let me know if this is a good idea or not:

I am following waviness program from Pavel, based on average of 2000 swings / month From Simple to Sinister: Waving Volume on S&S | StrongFirst
So far this lead me to over-training because every session I simply grabbed 32kg bells. Would it be better depending on the volume of swings / day to do this:

Daily volume <= 100 /w 32kg
Daily volume 100-150 /w 28kg
Daily volume > 150 w/ 24kg

What do you guys think ?
 
I am following waviness program from Pavel, based on average of 2000 swings / month From Simple to Sinister: Waving Volume on S&S | StrongFirst
So far this lead me to over-training because every session I simply grabbed 32kg bells. Would it be better depending on the volume of swings / day to do this:

Daily volume <= 100 /w 32kg
Daily volume 100-150 /w 28kg
Daily volume > 150 w/ 24kg

What do you guys think ?
I would say you are free to run it the way you want, but I don't think that's the way Pavel intended for it to be. I'm currently using this same program, and before I started, I did some searches to see if there were any posts from people doing it. There were not many, but I did find one particular post where some guy expressed some difficulty getting through some of the sessions. Pavel T. responded to his post saying that he would just need to rest more between sets. Pavel also has the option of dropping down to overspeed 2 handed swings on really bad days.

Everybody's perception of overtraining is different, so I'm not sure what your's is. This program is meant to overload you some of the time, and then back off. The overloading is what will force adaptation, and it's gonna suck.

As far as your original question, I wouldn't overthink deloading. If you really need it, then one or two days off should help you. When I get wore out after several weeks of intensity, lighter and faster session make me feel better than taking days off, but I realize everybody's different, and you need to find what works for you.

Good Luck!
 
Hi SF team

(lifting 5x per week for a total of 2000 swings) leaves me over trained after 2 weeks.

Don’t five S&S sessions total 500 swings?

If you are doing 2,000 total swings per five sessions, you aren’t doing S&S.

Perhaps take a few days off, then try doing the program as written and see if that makes you feel overtrained and burned out.

Good luck!
 
If you are doing 2,000 total swings in five sessions, you aren’t doing S&S.

Perhaps take a few days off, then try doing the program as written and see if that still makes you feel overtrained and burned out.

Good luck!
 
@Gerry K I forgot to mention 2000 swings is the monthly volume I do.
I've read the article that @Bauer sent about intensity variable by rolling a dice. I felt a lot better to split swings today where a set only consists of just 10 reps instead of 20 like I was used to.
 
20 rep sets isn’t S&S...so I suggest again trying the program as written and see how it makes you feel.
 
@Gerry K I forgot to mention 2000 swings is the monthly volume I do.
I've read the article that @Bauer sent about intensity variable by rolling a dice. I felt a lot better to split swings today where a set only consists of just 10 reps instead of 20 like I was used to.
Wow, @Tom Pintaric , you've always done your SaS Swings 10L+10R in one set? It's supposed to be 10L, rest, 10R, rest, etc.

With sets of 10+10 you are tapping more into the glycotic energy system, wearing you down more than with just 5-10 reps per set. Nothing wrong with that in general, as far as I can see this is also the way Mark Reifkind trains.

However, the recent SF approach leans more toward less reps per set and a focus on power production and long rests. Strong bursts of effort for 6-15 seconds and resting long enough between set to ensure that the next set is equally crisp. This trains the alactic and aerobic system and omits the glycotic system to some extent, minimizing fatigue while promoting power and endurance.

Disclaimer: I am not an experienced trainee, but I like to read about strength training.
 
Thanks @Bauer , So I tested S&S (32kg) after a month of training 10L + 10R and waving volume. I completed 100 swings (10+10 OTMEM) and 5+5 TGUs in 12:52. Now for the question that is dwindling in head:
Pavel always said, you own specific weight if you can do it again tomorrow, and the answer is, YES, I can do it again tomorrow and perhaps the next day after that. But I don't think I could do tests like that for the whole week or two since it is highly draining. Question now is, do I progress in weight to 36kg bells or continue to solidify 32kg ?
 
@Tom Pintaric I would increase the weight. On my TGUs I went from 32kg to 40kg after being able to do 10 get-ups (5+5 OTMEM) in under 10 min with the 32kg. I'm using the following template:

Week 1:
  • Set 1: 1 x 32kg (L+R)
  • Set 2: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 3: 1 x 32kg
  • Set 4: 1 x 32kg
  • Set 5: 1 x 32kg
Week 2:
  • Set 1: 1 x 32kg
  • Set 2: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 3: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 4: 1 x 32kg
  • Set 5: 1 x 32kg
Week 3:
  • Set 1: 1 x 32kg
  • Set 2: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 3: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 4: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 5: 1 x 32kg
Week 4
  • Set 1: 1 x 32kg
  • Set 2: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 3: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 4: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 5: 1 x 40kg
Week 5:
  • Set 1: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 2: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 3: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 4: 1 x 40kg
  • Set 5: 1 x 40kg
This type of linear progression might not always be possible but I found that resting 3-5 min between sets helped me personally. Usually towards the end of the week I'm able to reduce the rest a bit. Once all my sets with are being performed with the new weight, I focus on reducing the rest. When the rest gets down to about a 1 minute or less and the weight feels "normal" (not too heavy), it's time to test.

Don't forget, that it's fine to have a light day when you feel too tired (y)

I personally need to work on my OA swings. I feel the heavier I go, the less I fully hinge on the back swing. But that's a different topic...
 
@Tom Pintaric
I feel like I may be missing something here. S&S is intended to be a sustainable park bench program. As the book says, if you never have have heavy days, you don't need light days (although the book does have a provision for occasional "lighter" days using overspeed eccentrics with a lighter bell). So feeling like you need to "deload" from S&S seems like a red flag that you're not implementing the program as intended. So let's check in on some of the relevant variables and see if we can identify a problem:

Volume:
100 total reps per day x 5 day/week = 500 reps/week and 2000 reps/month. So after a little initial confusion, it seems like you ARE doing this according to the program.

Set length:
You state that you are doing sets of 10R/10L as one continuous set, correct? That is twice as long as specified in the program. 10 on one arm is a set, and you alternate arms each set. Doing sets of 20 instead of 10 will have a significant effect on the energy systems you are using and your ability to recover from set to set and day to day.

A lot of people here are doing A+A protocols using shorter sets (5 reps or fewer) and more repeats with great success.

Rest between sets:
Rest in daily training should be generous and allow for relatively full recovery between sets. With a challenging bell, I find one set of 10 at the top of each minute to be too rushed. A set of 10 on the 2:00 is not too relaxed, but depending on a lot of variables, you might go a lot faster or even slower.

You don't even have to go by a clock and can just go by feel. With a challenging bell, you are also not going to be able to intentionally compress your rest periods over time in a linear way and still recover properly between sets. Trying to do so will also definitely have a negative impact on your ability to recover day to day.

You may naturally need to rest a little less between sets over time, but compressing the total time is not the goal.

The goal is to just plug away doing your 10 sets of 10 with adequate recovery.

You can test yourself periodically by trying to reach the standard of doing a set of 10 every 30 seconds, and you can periodically do a continuous set test with a bell one size lighter than your working bell (IIRC, the book recommends this once you get to 32kg as your working bell). However, IMO the testing is not even necessary. When you feel like you really own a bell in daily training, and it is more an easy than moderate effort, it's fine (IMO) to start incorporating a heavier bell for some of your sets (there are lots of strategies for doing this, and it may require dropping the reps per set to 5 or fewer with the heavier bell).

You haven't made clear in your posts how you are resting and recovering between sets in your daily training, and this is a HUGE factor in the sustainability of the program.

Overall recovery considerations:
If you have other significant (or lots of less significant) stressors, it will have an effect on your recovery. These might be physical (other training, playing a sport, physically demanding job, lack of sleep, poor nutrition, etc.) and/or mental/emotional. Consider your package of stressors and recovery factors and modulate your training accordingly and/or see if you can improve on those recovery factors.

Recover as hard as you train.

Hope this helps.
 
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@Steve W Great post! I think it's important to realize that not everyone can do S&S 7 days a week at their current or desired intensity. Like you mentioned, some people have other stressors or aspects in their lives that might require the use of light days. When I first went through S&S, I ran it like a dictator for over 100 days straight. Even on days where my body was telling me to take it easy, I pushed it. Then I would have days that I felt S&S wasn't enough so I would add other training, which also lead to over training.

I 100% agree with you that S&S, when performed correctly, should not leave the trainee drained of energy. There should always be some gas left in the tank for life.
 
From a meat-head’s point of view

If you haven't hit simple standards yet:
I will always advocate that a practitioner follow the program by the book for best results, but I think Pavel left the door open on how hard you wanted to push it. You can surely operate it in the matter discussed, as a nice easy workout, and that may be beneficial for a lot of people. The beauty of the program is that it can be pushed a lot harder than that (with correct for & technique). Nice easy workouts may only take you so far, and most people may be happy with that, but some people may have higher aspirations. Pavel addresses that in the book with light days. So please, make sure your technique is good and you follow the book to get to the simple standard.

I would also advocate that pushing and testing your times every week or 2 is beneficial and gives you a good data point where you're at in your training. I get the fact that S&S can be practiced only as anaerobically, but, Pavel threw in timed tests and continuous swings to occasionally hit your glycolytic and aerobic systems. I'll admit, timed tests aren't fun, but it was the standard that Pavel established to determine your margin of strength with a certain bell. The more often you do them, the less you'll fear them. Even if you don't pass the time standard, it's still great practice for recovery breathing and maintaining form when fatigued.


If you've hit simple standards:
If someone wishes to take the program beyond the simple standard, they will come to a point where the "standard" practice and progression doesn't work as well for them. That's where practitioners will start waving variables such as intensity, volume, or density to keep progressing. Take a look at Pavel's "Simple to Sinister" Volume waving plan that @Tom Pintaric mentioned in one of his posts. You take your next higher bell than the bell you think you own and start wildly waving volume. Hitting one of the 700 swing rep weeks or doing a 200 swing workout is no joke, and I would hardly consider it leaving gas in the tank.

There also seems to be a great fear of over-training. Over-training is only a problem when it causes injuries or rhabdo. If you recognize the symptoms and catch it in time, it can be a valuable data point. Advanced practitioners know their limit (because they've hit it a few times) and will continue to push the envelope. You'll know if you're overtraining when your workouts keep getting progressively worse, so you take some days off or go light, back up your progression, and take another run at a slightly slower pace.

Good Luck Tom, I hope you hit your goals.
 
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