Kettlebell S&S frequency and weight

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
As devil is in the details, here is an article with tips for snatch technique, if you did not already have it:

Lion’s Roar Kettlebell Snatch | StrongFirst

Perfect your kettlebell snatch technique with the Lion’s Roar.

www.strongfirst.com

The Critical Difference Breathing Can Make in the Snatch Test | StrongFirst

We must practice proper breathing under extreme circumstances in order to have it become what feels most natural during competition.

www.strongfirst.com

4 Tips to Make the SFG Snatch Test Easier | StrongFirst

This program can fit into your current training without interrupting it. It will make your SFG snatch test easier - and far less dramatic of an experience.

www.strongfirst.com

Here are planning and pacing ideas:
Energy Systems and the Snatch Test | StrongFirst (this one may be great: high frequency, progressive increase in volume)
A Solid Game Plan for Acing the Snatch Test | StrongFirst (this one would be a peak programming leading to the certification)

Below a few other planning and pacing ideas

The Timeless Solution for Swings, Snatches, and More | StrongFirst

The performance strategy that prioritizes physiological progress by using the talk test and tracking your total session's duration.

www.strongfirst.com

Ace your Snatch Test Training Plan | StrongFirst

Use this eleven week training plan to ace your kettlebell instructor snatch test while also improving your one-arm swing technique.

www.strongfirst.com

55-Seconds to Kettlebell Snatch Test Success | StrongFirst

Learn how the 55s interval snatch plan helps you avoid two common kettlebell snatch test pitfalls: heart rate peaking and rushing through.

www.strongfirst.com

Hope that helps !

Kind regards,

Pet'

Thank you. Grand merci. I will be studying these quite a lot. Doing 100 too-big snatches is no problem for me, but doing 100 proper snatches within 5 minutes is a problem for me.

I think I like the move now, which is important, because I don't mind focussing on it. It almost seems like no other moves are really required for keeping fit.

 

[masa]

I believe, that in the end if you like to practice with the kettlebells, then you have to do both the swings and the snatches. After all, the swings were as an assistant movement to the snatch at some point. Both good. Do them as your life situation demands.

 

[Kozushi]

I believe, that in the end if you like to practice with the kettlebells, then you have to do both the swings and the snatches. After all, the swings were as an assistant movement to the snatch at some point. Both good. Do them as your life situation demands.

Yes. Swings can be done with heavier weights and have a deep and wide trajectory. Snatches have to be lighter, and have a narrow trajectory, almost straigh up and down except for the bottom part. They are actually quite a bit different. I'm happy that I have discovered a new move I like. It took being good at swings and TGUs to be able to start training profitably with the snatch, which is exactly what the ETK textbook says.

That's all very good. I now have three solid kettlebell moves that I have full faith in. We'll see what the new product will reveal about Clean&Jerk and more.

 

[Kozushi]

Today again 100 X 24kg snatches, 10 X 32kg TGUs, 10 X 32kg 1 handed swings (just to finish it all off).
I'll probably fall back to 40-60 snatches and full S&S sessions with the 32kg. 100 snatches a day with as of yet not fully refined technique is probably not too smart.

 

[barrak]

Today again 100 X 24kg snatches, 10 X 32kg TGUs, 10 X 32kg 1 handed swings (just to finish it all off).
I'll probably fall back to 40-60 snatches and full S&S sessions with the 32kg. 100 snatches a day with as of yet not fully refined technique is probably not too smart.

I wonder if the snatch mimics the getup in that a heavier weight would demand a stricter form, and thus avoid getting stuck through high volume with a sub-optimal pattern. In my case, I didn't "get" the value of fully recruiting the hip snap to drive the bell all the way to lockout until I passed 16K. Undoubtedly, you're much stronger than I.

Probably unrelated to this discussion, but I carried this mindset to my learning mace swings. I spent 4 months pushing my thoracic mobility and conditioning my triceps and elbows doing strictly back pendulums with an 8K mace before I started doing 360 swings with a 10 lb mace. Within a couple of weeks, upping to a 15 lb mace was a smooth transition. Had I started with 360 swings from the get go, I'm sure my "swings" would have been more like horizontal twirls, not to mention the high probability of developing elbow tendonitis.

 

[Kozushi]

I wonder if the snatch mimics the getup in that a heavier weight would demand a stricter form, and thus avoid getting stuck through high volume with a sub-optimal pattern. In my case, I didn't "get" the value of fully recruiting the hip snap to drive the bell all the way to lockout until I passed 16K. Undoubtedly, you're much stronger than I.

Probably unrelated to this discussion, but I carried this mindset to my learning mace swings. I spent 4 months pushing my thoracic mobility and conditioning my triceps and elbows doing strictly back pendulums with an 8K mace before I started doing 360 swings with a 10 lb mace. Within a couple of weeks, upping to a 15 lb mace was a smooth transition. Had I started with 360 swings from the get go, I'm sure my "swings" would have been more like horizontal twirls, not to mention the high probability of developing elbow tendonitis.

Makes sense. What I might do then is to work in some heavier snatches. My 28kg is probably heavy enough for this to start with, and I'll progress to 32kg. I'll still focus on the high volume snatches as this is where the fat burn happens, and a lot of other things, and it's how the snatch test works.

 

[Ege]

Gee

That's an interesting question. I'll muse on it a bit... Just offering my own thoughts/opinions.

In the beginning, for an untrained person, S&S serves as an excellent general stimulus for increased fitness.

In the beginning, for a trained person (someone who does other sports or training disciplines, but is new to kettlebells), S&S serves as an excellent alternative stimulus for continued fitness: movement quality, slightly different strength, power, stability, etc.

After a few weeks or months, both are partway to Simple or Timeless Simple (the previously trained person probably moving faster to this point). Daily or near-daily practice is best, if this is their only training. But in the context of other training like the trained person's other sport, 2-4x/week is enough for continued progress, because they're getting additional activity and training elsewhere.

At this point, why is the originally untrained person getting stronger and fitter at S&S? Mostly because doing anything consistently will make you stronger and fitter overall. This is an excellent routine that has it all. Why is the trained person getting stronger and fitter at S&S? Because they are practicing a new specific skill. They already were reasonably strong and fit.

A few weeks or months later, both have made enough progress to Timeless Simple, or Simple to the time standards if they focus on the conditioning and more glycolytic aspects for a few weeks.

Now, progress beyond Simple is a little different. It's more of a specific adaptation than a general one. More of a specific strength, specific skill, specific expression of power. Not to say that won't carry over to other things -- it will. But the programming it takes to progress with S&S becomes a little more like an intermediate strength program. Stress/recover/stress/recover, maybe vary the stress a bit. These are the techniques often seen to stimulate progress in intermediate programs.

Pre-Simple, the activity is driving the improvement. Post-Simple, the load is driving the improvement. The activity is still important, but the load management becomes the bigger factor.

Now more specifically to @Nacho's question...

person a) does S&S session with 32kg bell 2-6 times a week and lets say the average is 4,5 times a week
person b) does S&S with a 40kg bell 3 times a week

what pros and cons would you say each method has? The one who is using 40kg has gotten stronger, but what if the one using 32kg also strong enough for hes/her needs, but has other benefits because of more frequent training? I wonder if there is sort of a sweet spot where one can use as heavy bell as possible while keeping the frequency as high as possible... ?

Person A is still using the activity to drive progress. The degree to which this "works" slows down past Simple. So the pros: he gets to continue simple programming, he will get better and stronger eventually, he's getting a lot of benefit from doing that volume of work in a week (general fitness and health). The cons: it's not the best stimulus for increased strength and power.

Person B is more effectively using load to drive progress. Because it's a higher intensity (percent of his 1RM, or the most he can possibly do), he can't do it daily. He needs to do it one day, recover the next. This is an effective strength-building approach. So the pros: he gets stronger faster, he can do less training overall. The cons: if he doesn't do some other activity, then the reduced training volume will be less effective in maintaining his general fitness and health, as compared with Person A. But he could counter that by adding some easy walk/jog time, or many other good options.

Most people take an approach somewhere between these two, which is fine. That is basically the book's guidance. But perhaps thinking through what is driving progress for you as an individual can help inform your choice.

Great post! Thanks!