Kettlebell S&S HRM graphs

[Oscar]

Hi all,

I thought it would be fun to share how our HRM graphs look for a S&S session. I had the idea because my HR raised to 170 during a test session. How high does your hr go on test days?

Time standards with 24 kg while back:



Swings on 0:45, TGU otm, 32 kg:



Regular session. HR peaking at 150 during swings. TGU OTM



By the way, if I do the tgu OTM, my hr goes way above MAF. Higher than my target HR during the swings. Since it's not a power move, I don't think keeping a low HR is necessary. This is for daily practice as seen in the last track, not for test days. Ideas?

 

[mprevost]

MAF is a guide for continuous aerobic activities and it is not really about the heart. Heart rate is a proxy for work rate. So MAF is a way to keep work rate low, so that an extended amount of volume can be accumulated. MAF is a volume overload program, as opposed to an intensity overload program. Most endurance athletes use volume overload for 80% of their training and intensity overload for less than 20% of their training. In this type of programming (called polarized training), most work has to be done at a low intensity to be able to handle the volume. This stuff does not really apply to strength training though. You can never accumulate anywhere near a MAF run session work volume with any strength training program so MAF does not really apply.

 

[banzaiengr]

@Oscar My HR monitor doesn't have blue tooth so I don't get fancy graphs. Just for fun I do keep track of my HR during training sessions. I'm 59 so my corrected MAF for taking into consideration accumulated injuries and medication is 116.

If I do swings in an A+A style where I let my HR lower to a number that shouldn't allow my HR to go over MAF (104) generally my HR will go just a bit above my corrected MAF. For instance on 2/18 I did 10x10 swings with the 32K and my max HR was 121. If I do them with a 28K I don't go over my corrected MAF.

If I do them EMOM then the last time I did 10x10 with the 32K my max HR was 132 BPM. Again, with a 28K I can keep it much closer to my corrected MAF.

If you are testing then HR is of no value. You want to put out maximum effort. But to answer your question, mine will be in the high 150's to low 160's.

As you indicated, HR for TGU isn't of much use. From Al Ciampa's research I believe that is mostly due to the total tension used during the movement. There are other reasons I believe too that Mr. Ciampa could explain better than I.

As @mprevost indicates MAF really is of little value for strength training. It possibly could have some value as a benchmark for strength training sessions. For instance, if you are doing A+A snatches for extended periods, staying close to MAF may prevent overtraining. But I think the jury is still out on that.

 

[Oscar]

@mprevost many thanks for your reply, and well noted. As you know, many of us use HR as a guideline for recovery between sets when doing ballistics. Many of us also use it when doing S&S, so I wondered if paying attention to HR during TGU was of any value. In my experience, it isnt of much use, and I now confirm it by your post and @banzaiengr's.

@banzaiengr thanks a lot for your very comprehensive post.

If you are testing then HR is of no value. You want to put out maximum effort. But to answer your question, mine will be in the high 150's to low 160's.

Now that I think about it, my question was related to the old "when do you really own a bell" dilemma. If my heart is going through the roof when testing the swings in 5 minutes, do I really own the bell to move on to the next weight?

If I do them EMOM then the last time I did 10x10 with the 32K my max HR was 132 BPM

That very impressive, I still have long ways to get there. Congrats.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

@OscarAs you indicated, HR for TGU isn't of much use. From Al Ciampa's research I believe that is mostly due to the total tension used during the movement. There are other reasons I believe too that Mr. Ciampa could explain better than I.

I'm curious about this. I've been wearing my HR monitor during my conditioning sessions; I don't use it to regulate anything, just as a data point to see if I notice any changes over time. I rest a lot between TGUs (2 minutes at most), so my HR doesn't spike too high - but it drops almost all the way to resting rate in between. Goes from ~140 bpm at peak to ~75 at the bottom. Don't see that sort of swing with stuff like KB swings or calisthenics.

Seems like it's something more than just the rest time - I'd love to hear any theories about what's happening there biologically.

 

[Anna C]

If my heart is going through the roof when testing the swings in 5 minutes, do I really own the bell to move on to the next weight?

In my opinion, yes. If your swings are good and powerful, and you can do 10x10 in 5 min, you've met the program's standard to move up. It's never going to be easy when you're knocking on the door of the next weight. But relatively speaking, that bell may get "easy" when you move up farther. Do 10 x 10 with 12kg or 16kg in 5 min and you'll know what 24kg feels like to someone working regularly with 40kg.

 

[Anna C]

If I do swings in an A+A style where I let my HR lower to a number that shouldn't allow my HR to go over MAF (104) generally my HR will go just a bit above my corrected MAF. For instance on 2/18 I did 10x10 swings with the 32K and my max HR was 121. If I do them with a 28K I don't go over my corrected MAF.

If I do them EMOM then the last time I did 10x10 with the 32K my max HR was 132 BPM. Again, with a 28K I can keep it much closer to my corrected MAF.

I may be misreading the intent of what you're saying here, Carl, but using it to make a point....

I would never suggest that someone "bell down" just to keep their HR lower than any particular value. Seems to defeat most of the purpose of swings, to me.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Now that I think about it, my question was related to the old "when do you really own a bell" dilemma. If my heart is going through the roof when testing the swings in 5 minutes, do I really own the bell to move on to the next weight?

If I knew what my heart rate was when I first hit the time standard for a bell, It would probably scare me. It usually feels like my heart is pounding through my chest and I feel like coughing up a piece of lung.

Everyone has there own definition of owning a bell. In the context of S&S, I don't feel like I own a bell until I can hit the time standard with the next heavier bell. When you can do the time standard with about 80% of your max effort. You own it.

If you are looking to start a new bell, you can get away with starting a 4kg jump after you hit the time standard (with 95-100% effort) on your current bell. If you are doing a 8kg jump, you will want to wait til you OWN (time standard with 80% effort) your current bell.

Just my experience.

 

[banzaiengr]

I may be misreading the intent of what you're saying here, Carl, but using it to make a point....

I would never suggest that someone "bell down" just to keep their HR lower than any particular value. Seems to defeat most of the purpose of swings, to me.

The poster ask that others share HR monitor graphs. I don't have the fancy graphs so I was just responding to him as such. As I don't believe HR matters much when testing I was just giving him some examples of where mine has been at with two separate bells during regular training sessions.

I "bell down" when I'm feeling not as crisp as other days. S&S is set at 10x10 for swings. So unlike A+A where one can wave volume with S&S sometimes I wave intensity (load). I can do 10x10 with a 40K but I wouldn't do it every day. That's just the way I am and generally don't follow all the rulez.

 

[banzaiengr]

I agree that many have different definitions for "owning a bell". I like @Bro Mo answer in another thread;

"I know I own Simple because I can do it in the time standards, take a 5min break, and do it again within the standards."

So, there's doing Simple and there's owning Simple.

But forgive me, I don't comment on StrongFirst programs.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

That's just the way I am and generally don't follow all the rulez.

Nor should you!

1. Rules are for the fools
2. Guides are for the wise

The guides of S&S are the important part.

• Train with high frequency
• Train both ballistics and grinds
• Train heavy with low enough volume than can be done with high frequency yet high enough volume to create adaptation
• Significantly recover between sets during training
• Test progress infrequently
• Progress as capable rather than as scheduled
• Spend significant time in one place to let adaptation stick before progressing
• Avoid performance imbalances
• etc.

 

[offwidth]

Considering I am still finding out things in the shoe TGU, I will never own simple.... or anything else for that matter...

 

[Anna C]

Makes sense, @banzaiengr ! I think you and I see things the same when it comes to HR and exercise.

Personally I do feel like HR is useful for kettlebell ballistics. Not a determining factor... but useful. Because after all, it's not pure strength training, right? For example, light kettlebell swings or snatches are remarkably similar to rhythmically pulling on a C2... and I think most of us would call that "cardio" and say that a HRM is useful when rowing on a C2.

Interesting discussion referenced in this thread had to do with "what makes the HR go up" in different types of exercise? Premise being that with aerobic exericse, it's a gas exchange; oxygen and CO2. With strength training, it's adrenaline, an increased sympathetic nervous system activation in response to the need to do difficult work (my words). But what is it with kettlebell ballistics? Some elements of both, I think.

So while I rarely wear the HRM anymore for anything other than my bike rides, I still think it's both interesting and illuminating when it comes to certain types of kettlebell work.

And to answer @Oscar 's original question, my HR goes to around 170 in a max effort 5- minute 10x10 swings, or a 5-min snatch test, and that sort of thing, and my charts look very similar to yours for those types of efforts. The max HR I ever see when running or cycling in a max effort is about 10 bpm higher, at around 180. My age is 51, and I've been training with a HRM for 10 years. None of my HR dynamics seem to have changed much in the last 10 years as related to age... though hard to say, since my physical condition has changed in various ways too.

 

[banzaiengr]

The guides of S&S are the important part.

• Train with high frequency
• Train both ballistics and grinds
• Train heavy with low enough volume than can be done with high frequency yet high enough volume to create adaptation
• Significantly recover between sets during training
• Test progress infrequently
• Progress as capable rather than as scheduled
• Spend significant time in one place to let adaptation stick before progressing
• Avoid performance imbalances
• etc.

That's wise right there, I don't care who you are.

 

[Oscar]

And to answer @Oscar 's original question, my HR goes to around 170 in a max effort 5- minute 10x10 swings, or a 5-min snatch test, and that sort of thing, and my charts look very similar to yours for those types of efforts. The max HR I ever see when running or cycling in a max effort is about 10 bpm higher, at around 180. My age is 51, and I've been training with a HRM for 10 years. None of my HR dynamics seem to have changed much in the last 10 years as related to age... though hard to say, since my physical condition has changed in various ways too.

Thanks Anna, that makes sense. From the book, I had the understanding that the 5 minute test should feel somewhat easier.

 

[Kozushi]

Considering I am still finding out things in the shoe TGU, I will never own simple.... or anything else for that matter...

I've done the S&S swings with the 32 in 7 minutes a few times. That's good enough for me. IF my life depended on it I could probably do them all in 5 minutes, but my life does not depend on it so I don't care. I get that the 5 minute mark is a "guide of the wise" so I'm aware of it, and so my 7 minute records tell me that I'm doing okay.
I'm going to guide myself a bit past bare S&S now. The heavier 2h swings are more MUCH more useful for judo success, so I'm switching to them, but still with the 100 swings per day protocol. The TGU is a brilliant move, so even if it isn't as strong a move as a heavier double kettlebell press, it's a skillful athletic movement under stress which helps me again with my fighting art aspirations. I don't know though, I might even progress towards focussing on heavy double presses, we'll see. But good point about being guided rather than dictated to, after a certain while when you've learned "the rules" first and learned them well, while still a fool.

 

[barrak]

Not Strictly S&S, but here are some of my HR ranges:

120 - 130 when rushing across campus between classes with a bag weighing 10-15 lb. (recent).
150 - 160 when trying to keep up with my 8th grader running up and down mountain trails. (last summer, sucking wind most of the time. Never again).
170 - 180 during my first ever ruck last weekend with an 18 lb. bag (same pace used on campus).

The last one was a shocker for me. During the 50 minute moderate pace (3.5 mile/hr) I thought I was hovering around 130. My fitbit revealed that I was off by a LOT. If it's to be believed, I peaked momentarily at 188 during the first 5 minutes ! It was 25 degrees and the trail was moderately snow-packed and nearly flat.

To my knowledge, I never ever reached 180. Don't know what to make of it. I'll repeat this weekend with a reduced pace and see if I could stay within 140 - 145.

To give some reference: I'm in my mid-50s, and just completed 12 weeks of ROTK with a pair of 16K. Rest HR is 55 - 60.

 

[offwidth]

My fitbit revealed that I was off by a LOT. If it's to be believed,

I wouldn't...

 

[barrak]

I wouldn't...

I hear you.

Today, I did a repeat on the same flat 2.5-mile trail. This time carrying 35lb (double the previous weight) and wearing a chest strap monitor (a resurrected Garmin HRM2-SS, paired to a Garmin Instinct). Same 3.5 mph pace (17 min/mile). HR readings were steady at 120-125 with a max of 138. It seems my fitbit was overshooting then by 50 bpm! (Roughly, +40%)

I gave the fitbit to my middle-schooler last week, to encourage her to move more. Hope it works.