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Kettlebell S & S + Lifting

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dm1

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Hi all - new to the forum so apologies if this has been covered before, but I recently started S & S in conjunction with my normal M/W/F lifting schedule. So far I’ve been doing S & S 2 day’s a week (T/Th) as recommended, but I had a couple questions.

1) For those who combine it with bodybuilding, how many days a week do you perform S & S?

2) I’m using S & S primarily for conditioning purposes. Given this, resting between each set of 10 swings would seem to detract from the intended benefit. How should rest periods be setup to maximize the conditioning effect?

Thanks in advance.
 
By S&S, I assume you mean Simple & Sinister. Is that correct?

If so, what is your main goal?

From a conditioning standpoint, rest as specified between sets of swings. You'll be surprised at the conditioning benefit that it provides.

If your goal is bodybuilding, there are probably other programs that would work better. For example, Geoff Neupert’s Kettlebell Muscle or Pavel’s Return of the Kettlebell.

Simple & Sinister and kettlebells, in general, are awesome. But we still need to use the right tools/programs for the job… In this case (bodybuilding), Simple & Sinister might not be it, IMO.
 
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Ryan Toshner said:
By S&S, I assume you mean Simple & Sinister. Is that correct?

If so, what is your main goal?
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Thanks Ryan, and apologies for the poorly worded post earlier. Yes, I meant Simple & Sinister.

To clarify, I’m not looking to use S&S for hypertrophy - my other training has that covered (and I agree it wouldn’t be a great choice for that purpose). Rather, I intend to use it as my primary source of conditioning. Also, due to some prior injuries I don’t deadlift heavy, so the swings are a nice way to train the hip hinge without irritating my lower back.

So in terms of conditioning, my natural instinct is to continue swings until form starts to break down, then rest. But should I actually be putting the KB down after every 10, even if I’m not fatigued?
 
william bad butt said:
I just alternate.
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Yeah, that’s what gets me. I feel fresh enough to where I could throw in a S&S session on the weekend, or even at the end of a lift session. But I don’t want to fall into the “more is better” trap unless, well..more is actually better. :D
 
dm1 said:
Thanks Ryan, and apologies for the poorly worded post earlier. Yes, I meant Simple & Sinister.

To clarify, I’m not looking to use S&S for hypertrophy - my other training has that covered (and I agree it wouldn’t be a great choice for that purpose). Rather, I intend to use it as my primary source of conditioning. Also, due to some prior injuries I don’t deadlift heavy, so the swings are a nice way to train the hip hinge without irritating my lower back.

So in terms of conditioning, my natural instinct is to continue swings until form starts to break down, then rest. But should I actually be putting the KB down after every 10, even if I’m not fatigued?
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S&S by the book requires you to be fresh before starting the next set, so that all reps are crisp and powerful. So indeed, put the bell down after ten, let your HR drop and then start the next set.

I sometimes do it with a HR monitor, I start when it drops to 100 and peaks at about 145-150, which is my MAF HR at 34 years old. The average HR after the session is about 125 for 40 minutes, which is similar to a very easy jog.

if you want to go all out, you can do non stop swings once a week, once you start working with the 32 kg
 
Oscar said:
S&S by the book requires you to be fresh before starting the next set, so that all reps are crisp and powerful. So indeed, put the bell down after ten, let your HR drop and then start the next set.
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Thanks Oscar. I’ll try putting the bell down between each set of 10 until I feel reasonably recovered. So length of rest periods will increase as sets and fatigue progress.
 
I have a completely different question involving S+S and lifting. I want to add a couple days of S+S to my program.
I currently squat 3x5+ Monday and Friday, deadlift Wednesday, and alternate benches and rows with overhead presses and pull downs.
My first thought was to add swings to Monday and Friday, but I have read from a few sources that you should avoid heavy swings more than 48 hours before deadlifts. The most notable being Kilgore and Lasciek in their book "Fit".
Any suggestions as to when to add a couple days worth of swings?
 
dm1 said:
Hi all - new to the forum so apologies if this has been covered before, but I recently started S & S in conjunction with my normal M/W/F lifting schedule. So far I’ve been doing S & S 2 day’s a week (T/Th) as recommended, but I had a couple questions.

1) For those who combine it with bodybuilding, how many days a week do you perform S & S?

2) I’m using S & S primarily for conditioning purposes. Given this, resting between each set of 10 swings would seem to detract from the intended benefit. How should rest periods be setup to maximize the conditioning effect?

Thanks in advance.
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I've been on S&S for well over 2 years now. I always rest between sets, or at least after every 2 sets (I tend to do 10 right and then immediately 10 left, and THEN rest). Rest as long as you need to and then do the next set. Obviously the more you compress the rests, the more conditioning you're getting out of it, but as long as you're not waiting until you get all cold again, you're progressing conditioning wise.
 
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I'd recommend reading the book so you have a better understanding of the program. Knowing the "why" behind it will be helpful.
 
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Kozushi said:
I've been on S&S for well over 2 years now. I always rest between sets, or at least after every 2 sets (I tend to do 10 right and then immediately 10 left, and THEN rest). Rest as long as you need to and then do the next set. Obviously the more you compress the rests, the more conditioning you're getting out of it, but as long as you're not waiting until you get all cold again, you're progressing conditioning wise.
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I did my S&S session untimed today, resting intuitively between sets. I was still breathing pretty heavy by the end, and overall it was a decent workout without feeling totally gassed.

On a separate note, this was my first attempt at one arm swings and it felt really awkward on the right side with a 55lb bell (I’m using an Ironmaster adjustable KB). Ironically this is my dominant side, yet I felt like my shoulder didn’t want to stay packed. May try dropping the weight 10-15lbs on Thursday till I groove the pattern.
 
dm1 said:
I did my S&S session untimed today, resting intuitively between sets. I was still breathing pretty heavy by the end, and overall it was a decent workout without feeling totally gassed.

On a separate note, this was my first attempt at one arm swings and it felt really awkward on the right side with a 55lb bell (I’m using an Ironmaster adjustable KB). Ironically this is my dominant side, yet I felt like my shoulder didn’t want to stay packed. May try dropping the weight 10-15lbs on Thursday till I groove the pattern.
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2 handed swings are also excellent, but obviously doing them 1 handed is better for developing strength since you have to hold on twice as hard, and of course your body has to stop itself from being twisted inside out by the pull of the bell.

This kind of anti-twist or asymmetrical load theory I apply to my military presses also. Evidently it's quite a mean challenge for your body to stay balanced while pressing a heavy weight with only one arm. I find this kind of asymmetrical load strength critical for "real world" strength in judo. The real world is chaotic and it's hard to get a symmetrical load, ever.
 
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It’s definitely a challenge, especially coming from a bodybuilding background. I have to really concentrate on not turning the upwards swing into a front raise! :cool:
 
dm1 said:
It’s definitely a challenge, especially coming from a bodybuilding background
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It's a mental game for sure. BB is great but alot of the kb and pure strength concepts run about 180 degrees in opposition as I'm sure you know. Be careful of your form with 1 hand swings and protect your biceps, a 55 lb bell can bite you if your not mindful. I know this from experience.. Patience pays dividends in the kb realm.
 
Bret S. said:
It's a mental game for sure. BB is great but alot of the kb and pure strength concepts run about 180 degrees in opposition as I'm sure you know. Be careful of your form with 1 hand swings and protect your biceps, a 55 lb bell can bite you if your not mindful. I know this from experience.. Patience pays dividends in the kb realm.
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Appreciate the advice, and I completely agree. As a personal trainer I’m always looking to expand my knowledge of other methods that compliment traditional weight training (even if it means becoming a complete newbie again!).

One of the things I really like about S&S is the simplicity..2 movements, clear progressions. I’m not looking to become a KB guru (at least at this point), so if learning just swings and get ups can get me 80% of the benefits, I’m a happy camper.
 
dm1 said:
Appreciate the advice, and I completely agree. As a personal trainer I’m always looking to expand my knowledge of other methods that compliment traditional weight training (even if it means becoming a complete newbie again!).

One of the things I really like about S&S is the simplicity..2 movements, clear progressions. I’m not looking to become a KB guru (at least at this point), so if learning just swings and get ups can get me 80% of the benefits, I’m a happy camper.
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That's great, S&S was the 'red pill' moment for me, now I just want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes..
 
@dm1 , glad to see you've been experimenting a little!

@Keith Fraser , I've done a program where I did double kettlebell swings for 10x10 with a similar "rest scenario" to S&S. The swings were completed on deadlift days (Mon & Sat... Surovetsky... Google it).

That's all I did for the last 5 weeks before a TSC (2 years ago), and I set a PR on the DL, was 1-rep shy of a pull-up PR, and tied my snatch PR. I did eat and sleep like it was going out of style, but it was effective.

So, in your case, maybe swing on Wednesday and Friday (or Saturday).
 
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