Kettlebell S & S + Lifting

[Bret S.]

@dm1 , glad to see you've been experimenting a little!

@Keith Fraser , I've done a program where I did double kettlebell swings for 10x10 with a similar "rest scenario" to S&S. The swings were completed on deadlift days (Mon & Sat... Surovetsky... Google it).

That's all I did for the last 5 weeks before a TSC (2 years ago), and I set a PR on the DL, was 1-rep shy of a pull-up PR, and tied my snatch PR. I did eat and sleep like it was going out of style, but it was effective.

So, in your case, maybe swing on Wednesday and Friday (or Saturday).

HeyRyan, how close were you to maxing out regarding loads, I assume they were close to 85%? The reason I ask is that I'm doing VWC which is on the opposite end of the load and rep spectrum yet I'm getting stronger in other areas almost by the day.

As I understand it double swings fall more into the 'fast grind' category? I also do heavy 2HSW clusters along with heavy double clean clusters on other days. Apart from that I roll a single dice 3 times/wk and do clean, press, squat, pullup ladders according to the number rolled. heavy and light getups round things out.

I was seeing steady strength improvements before VWC but since starting it (7 weeks ago) my strength gains have noticably accelerated. Your post caught my eye as I started the heavy double cleans about a month ago. I hadn't done heavy getups for 2 weeks, yesterday I did them and they felt lighter than before with no tweaky feeling at all in my shoulders.

Sorry for the long post but I'm just interested to see what you think.. Thanks

Bret

 

[Ryan Toshner]

@Bret S. , the Surovetsky program ranges in weight from 70-105% of previous 1RM (Surovetsky Deadlift Program | Strength Training Programs)... But Pavel recommends using less than 1RM to do the calculations (which I whole-heartedly agree).

I used my previous 1RM as 105% (three doubles on day 2 of week 8) and did the calculations from there. That was two years ago, and I often joke that I'm still recovering from it (but I'm half serious).

Anyway, the swings were done with 2x24 kg... which was about 20% of my deadlift 1RM. So, technically, not very heavy... And I held myself to (slightly more than) S&S standards: swing to shoulder (not chest) height, all reps of all sets done as powerfully as the first set, rest as long as necessary to make that happen, but also do it as quickly as possible.

As for VWC... I also did that years ago when Kenneth first wrote the book. It's a fine program so long as you're conscious about actually hitting vertical with your arm (it's easy to not do when you're going fast... speaking from experience)... and it technically fits in reasonably well with the StrongEndurance (SE) methodology. But you get strong for a different reason than something like 044 (SE protocol doing low-rep, heavy snatches).

VWC gets you strong because of the combo of speed & volume. 044 helps with strength too, but because of power & intensity. Also, we've found at TNT that snatches, in general, are just really good for developing strength (forearms, shoulders, back & the rest of the posterior chain)... definitely a WTH effect.

Having said all that, do what works for you and what you enjoy. I'd personally never go back to VWC, but that's because I enjoy doing the heavy power work of stuff like 044 and S&S. But I also get some conditioning work climbing and doing BJJ. So, to each their own.

 

[Bret S.]

@Bret S. , the Surovetsky program ranges in weight from 70-105% of previous 1RM (Surovetsky Deadlift Program | Strength Training Programs)... But Pavel recommends using less than 1RM to do the calculations (which I whole-heartedly agree).

I used my previous 1RM as 105% (three doubles on day 2 of week 8) and did the calculations from there. That was two years ago, and I often joke that I'm still recovering from it (but I'm half serious).

Anyway, the swings were done with 2x24 kg... which was about 20% of my deadlift 1RM. So, technically, not very heavy... And I held myself to (slightly more than) S&S standards: swing to shoulder (not chest) height, all reps of all sets done as powerfully as the first set, rest as long as necessary to make that happen, but also do it as quickly as possible.

As for VWC... I also did that years ago when Kenneth first wrote the book. It's a fine program so long as you're conscious about actually hitting vertical with your arm (it's easy to not do when you're going fast... speaking from experience)... and it technically fits in reasonably well with the StrongEndurance (SE) methodology. But you get strong for a different reason than something like 044 (SE protocol doing low-rep, heavy snatches).

VWC gets you strong because of the combo of speed & volume. 044 helps with strength too, but because of power & intensity. Also, we've found at TNT that snatches, in general, are just really good for developing strength (forearms, shoulders, back & the rest of the posterior chain)... definitely a WTH effect.

Having said all that, do what works for you and what you enjoy. I'd personally never go back to VWC, but that's because I enjoy doing the heavy power work of stuff like 044 and S&S. But I also get some conditioning work climbing and doing BJJ. So, to each their own.

Thanks Ryan, that sounds about right for the load, double 24's swings are no joke, they are heavy for me and I really have to zip up hard when doing them.
Right now it's VWC for me as it's doing some nice things to my body and CV system. Funny though, it seems to be the general consensus that people who have done it won't be going back to the VWC format. It seems to be the right thing for me at the right time so I'll just enjoy the ride and see how far I can go with it.
BTW I met Derek at the SFG 1 cert in San Diego on Mar 2nd this year. He's a snatching beast and an all around great guy as we talked for awhile. He wasn't my team leader but I did the snatch test in front of him and his team.

 

[Anna C]

BTW I met Derek at the SFG 1 cert in San Diego on Mar 2nd this year. He's a snatching beast and an all around great guy

I met Derek at Strong Endurance in May 2018. I didn't immediately recognize him but then various people were called up to demonstrate protocols and he was snatching a 32kg absolutely expertly. I have never seen a heavy snatch so dialed in to hardstyle efficiency. Then I realized who he was and said, oh, of course.... The TSC snatching master, Derek Toshner!