S&S+, Judo, Kendo, Historical & Modern Fencing, Walking.
- Thread starter Kozushi
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pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello @Kozushi
I tried something along these lines during the first lockdown in France :
- Day 1: Timeless Simple
- Day 2: Red Zone (24 for presses, 32 for swings)
- Repeat
That way, I got 100 daily swings. If you do not plan to go beyond 32kg GU, this will be plenty. 3x a week of presses (50 per session) @24 is close to RoP but evenly split. Therefore, your presses may get better, while maintaining GU.
As far as recovery goes, it is possible to hit between 1 and 3 sessions a week with swings @24. It may be an option if you have other physical activities (judo, fencing, etc...)
Hope that helps,
Kind regards,
Pet'
I tried something along these lines during the first lockdown in France :
- Day 1: Timeless Simple
- Day 2: Red Zone (24 for presses, 32 for swings)
- Repeat
That way, I got 100 daily swings. If you do not plan to go beyond 32kg GU, this will be plenty. 3x a week of presses (50 per session) @24 is close to RoP but evenly split. Therefore, your presses may get better, while maintaining GU.
As far as recovery goes, it is possible to hit between 1 and 3 sessions a week with swings @24. It may be an option if you have other physical activities (judo, fencing, etc...)
Hope that helps,
Kind regards,
Pet'
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes, once the clubs open up again, I might have to scale back the swing weight - we'll see. I'll probably be okay to keep it at 32kg though.
That's a smart idea regarding alternating presses and TGUs.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello @Kozushi
Yes, both moves pair very well.
However, I noticed more strength gains from presses than TGU. Indeed after both ROP and RZ done with 24, I was able to do GU with 32 without prior practice.
If you already have a flexibility / mobility elsewehere, then it can even save you time. This time can be used for either recovery or practicing fencing technique.
Dan John advocates for 24kg GU for mobility purpose, and DL / OVH for strength purposes. Something hybrid and harder than it seems is a GU with a press at each step. This makes you do a press at weird angle and makes 24kg fairly heavy
Kind regards,
Pet'
Yes, both moves pair very well.
However, I noticed more strength gains from presses than TGU. Indeed after both ROP and RZ done with 24, I was able to do GU with 32 without prior practice.
If you already have a flexibility / mobility elsewehere, then it can even save you time. This time can be used for either recovery or practicing fencing technique.
Dan John advocates for 24kg GU for mobility purpose, and DL / OVH for strength purposes. Something hybrid and harder than it seems is a GU with a press at each step. This makes you do a press at weird angle and makes 24kg fairly heavy
Kind regards,
Pet'
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I suppose it is something of the old English adage "six of one, half a dozen of the other", meaning that they both in the end produce some kind of fairly similar result. A reason to keep the TGU though and maybe even to prefer it over presses is that in the combat training I do including for kendo and fencing, they have us do a lot of bodyweight exercises that involve twisting the body in all sorts of weird ways. The TGU provides the all-round strength needed for these whereas the presses do not. There is also the fact that the TGU involves a lunge, which is a key movement in any and all combat sports but especially in the ones I do.
But I seem to have noticed what you are making explicit here, which is that doing a pressing programme with a 24kg yields similar or even more pressing strength than a TGU programme with the 32kg. I guess this would stand to reason anyways since pressing is pressing and TGUing isn't quite the same animal!
I'm still convinced that the TGU is especially important, and really stands out as particularly beneficial among all training patterns due to its gymnastics-like qualities. It isn't the go-to move for straight strength training, but there is almost nothing like it in free weights for developing and improving balance and coordination under stress.
In fact one reason I prefer doing one arm presses over two arm is the challenge to my balance under pressure. Doing double presses is a clearly better choice for strength development, but not the challenge to my balance is not really there. I'd put balance under pressure almost on par with strength as an athletic skill for the sports I train and compete in.
WhatWouldHulkDo
Level 8 Valued Member
In my mind, the TGU is much more of a core exercise than a shoulder exercise. Gotta have a good platform for your strength - the old "can't fire a cannon out of a canoe" saying. The TGU builds the platform, the press builds the cannon. Different, but equally important.But I seem to have noticed what you are making explicit here, which is that doing a pressing programme with a 24kg yields similar or even more pressing strength than a TGU programme with the 32kg. I guess this would stand to reason anyways since pressing is pressing and TGUing isn't quite the same animal!
I'm still convinced that the TGU is especially important, and really stands out as particularly beneficial among all training patterns due to its gymnastics-like qualities. It isn't the go-to move for straight strength training, but there is almost nothing like it in free weights for developing and improving balance and coordination under stress.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Especially pertinent to combat sports, and to firing cannons in a war! The biggest, strongest people do not win in combat sports unless they are also well balanced, technically proficient and fast. Big guys lose all the time in judo to small guys. I have lost to small people myself including some pretty important championship matches - and of course everyone cheered when I lost, which just made it worse!
In fencing I was destroyed by a 12 year old girl (who was training a lot under high powered coaches and later became Canadian champion.) I don't even want to get into my embarrassment in kendo.
I can see the presses as being a fantastic add-on to the TGU strength and gymnastic-like skills, but I'd be loathe to give up TGUs for them. Pet was not suggesting this by the way - his advice and suggestions are excellent and reassuring to know about!
My fencing coach says my lunges and recovery looked super good this week. I'm thrilled!
I find fencing more physically demanding than kendo due to the deep stances.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
You got it exactly right. I did not mean to ditch the GU by any mean. This is a wonderful move which blends perfectly strength, mobility, coordination and balance. It clearly builds a reliable chassis.
I think I am biaised because I have my own mobility and flexibility routine which makes me able to do head kick without warm-up for instance, same for splits (front and side), full back bridge, toe touch from both standing and on the ground, and twist. Naturally, I am more and the 'endurance and weak' side, which is why I tend to favour C&P.
Nonetheless, I always have a lot of pleasure when I get back to Timeless Simple. I always benefit from it (meditative aspect, 'blend' of athleticism, etc...)
Kind regards,
Pet'
You got it exactly right. I did not mean to ditch the GU by any mean. This is a wonderful move which blends perfectly strength, mobility, coordination and balance. It clearly builds a reliable chassis.
I think I am biaised because I have my own mobility and flexibility routine which makes me able to do head kick without warm-up for instance, same for splits (front and side), full back bridge, toe touch from both standing and on the ground, and twist. Naturally, I am more and the 'endurance and weak' side, which is why I tend to favour C&P.
Nonetheless, I always have a lot of pleasure when I get back to Timeless Simple. I always benefit from it (meditative aspect, 'blend' of athleticism, etc...)
Kind regards,
Pet'
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
And this would be one reason why Pavel has continued to recommended both programmes. Someone already doing some gymnastics-like activities won't really need the TGUs but might need the free weight training of presses.
To continue with my balance theme, it seems a lot of kettlebell moves including one arm presses even are more balance-challenging than typical barbell or bodyweight moves. Swings are quite balance-challenging if you think about it. Windmills also (for those who do them.) Etc... C&P...
Balance-challenging might be one of those magic aspects of kettlebell training that sets it apart from other kinds of weight training systems. You can't be a good fighter if you are tripping over your feet all the time!
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
You are perfectly right.
I also value the blend of strength and balance training a lot. Since I've been doing pistol squats on a daily basis, my trail and boxing have improved.
It is, IMO, useless being able to lift 200kg+ if I can not fight or trail, or if I am not 'comfortable' at weird angles / one foot.
The only drawback is that as soon as we put balance into the equation, we can not train raw max strength because we have to handle another constraint (balance).
A fun and useful mix I found is OAOL OVH kb press (sometimes opposite limbs, sometimes on the same side). It can be done as warm-up or variety
Kind regards,
Pet'
You are perfectly right.
I also value the blend of strength and balance training a lot. Since I've been doing pistol squats on a daily basis, my trail and boxing have improved.
It is, IMO, useless being able to lift 200kg+ if I can not fight or trail, or if I am not 'comfortable' at weird angles / one foot.
The only drawback is that as soon as we put balance into the equation, we can not train raw max strength because we have to handle another constraint (balance).
A fun and useful mix I found is OAOL OVH kb press (sometimes opposite limbs, sometimes on the same side). It can be done as warm-up or variety
Kind regards,
Pet'
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
And raw strength definitely counts a lot too!
masa
Level 10 Valued Member
I will keep swings and presses as my primary movements. I will add get-ups in the future, but not going to do them as much as I did with the S&S. I feel that I can maintain get-up progress with a lesser volume, but presses needs a loads of reps. But now only two-hand swings and one-hand presses.
masa
Level 10 Valued Member
True that, Comrade.
mission.failed86
First Post
Mate - I think I need to read your whole log - but I would love to hear your experience training both Judo and Kendo. I've been doing BJJ for a decade and the pandemic has made me reassess my training. I was going to jump to Judo entirely but the community centre where the club is also hosts a Kendo club. I was wondering if training both was a good idea once it's safe again.
Good to see there's someone out there already doing it!
Good to see there's someone out there already doing it!
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