S & S Questions - Links

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by Steve Freides, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    You do:

    10 swings left
    10 swings right
    10 left
    Etc. Continue until completing 10 set in total (5 sets per arm)

    Rest

    1 tgu left
    1 right
    1 left
    Etc. Continúe until completing 10 in total, 5 per arm
     
    Gary Wilson likes this.
  2. Gary Wilson

    Gary Wilson Triple-Digit Post Count

    Thanks that makes sence!
     
  3. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

  4. Mirek

    Mirek Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    GSQ = Goblet squat.
     
  5. Ken_

    Ken_ Double-Digit Post Count

    Thank you Mirek.
     
    Mirek likes this.
  6. Mike C

    Mike C Double-Digit Post Count

    I have a question about the weight progression standard in S&S that's been with me a while now and thought I'd pose it in here and see what I get. Apologies if it's been answered elsewhere. I have read a decent amount of the forum and searched but didn't see the answer.

    In the section "The Goals and How to Reach Them" in Simple & Sinister, Pavel says, "Gradually reduce the rest periods - but without undue pressure. ... Eventually you will reach the point where the work-to-rest ratio is 1:1.... It is almost time to move up in weight."

    As I read this section, this does not sound to me like the idea is to 'test' on one or a few days to see if the time standard can be reached, but rather that the daily workout will eventually reach the 1:1 ratio. However, the interpretation that I get from the forums is the former - pick a day or two, get after it and see if the time standards can be met. If so, then begin to progress the weight in that exercise.

    Is this a point that has been clarified by Pavel or re-imagined since the book's publication and I missed it? Or, am I interpreting the book's text incorrectly?

    I'd love to hear some experienced voices' opinions on this. In the past I've bounced around with S&S but not achieved the standards. I'd like to give it an honest go as closely to the original intent as possible, so I think clarity on this point would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  7. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides StrongFirst Director of Community Engagement Staff Member Senior Instructor

    @Mike C, the choice is yours. If you progress to the point where you are essentially able to pass the test on any given day, your chances for success with a heavier weight increase. Part of the beauty of S&S is its simplicity. Use one weight until you own it then move to the next - wonderfully simple to understand and to follow.

    -S-
     
  8. Mike C

    Mike C Double-Digit Post Count

    I think I found my own answer in this article, of course shortly after I posted the question:

    Simple & Sinister Progression Tactic | StrongFirst

    "In a nutshell, the program calls for 10×10 one-arm swings (five sets per arm), with the goal of eventually being able to do them in five minutes with a particular size kettlebell any time. It does not mean you should strive to hit your 100 swings in five minutes in every training session, though."

    However, I still think this is different than how it is stated in the book, so the clarification is helpful.

    Any comments still welcome.
     
    Bauer likes this.
  9. Mike C

    Mike C Double-Digit Post Count

    Thanks, Steve. I do think the book implies a more stringent standard, but the article I found and linked to seems to clarify the idea of testing better (at least to me).
     
  10. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    @Mike C, I think you're picking up on the right stuff there. There has been a lot of forum discussions on this subject in older posts but not as much here recently.

    I think of it like a "top down" approach. Let's say today you could do 10x10 swings with 20kg in 5 minutes, but you struggle with 24kg... you can do 10x10, but only if you take 8-15 minutes total for swings. Should you train diligently with the one you can "test" with every day, 20kg? No. That would be a "bottom up" approach and would not drive progress as well as challenging yourself with a heavier weight. So you should train with 24kg, making each set as powerful and explosive as it can be, taking as much rest as you need to make sure that happens. Eventually you won't need as much rest, or stated another way, with a big push you could get it done in 5 minutes. Then it's time to start working in the 28 or 32kg.

    So another way to think of it is that the goal (for your own physical results) is to competently and powerfully swing a heavier kettlebell in meaningful volume. The 5 min time standard for 10x10 are just an indicator of to what degree a given kettlebell has become almost easy for you, so that you can continue to train with a heavier one. Stated in this way, the 5 min isn't really the goal.

    That's just sort of the way I've come to think of it. Hope that helps.
     
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  11. Mike C

    Mike C Double-Digit Post Count

    Anna -

    Thanks for your thoughts, certainly not the least of which is that the goal of 'X kg for Y reps in Z minutes' is ultimately arbitrary, but useful for tracking progress.

    I think your comment about the "big push" gets closer to what I'm really curious about. How small does the "big push" need to be before it's time to start the transition to the next bell (i.e., I feel like I "own" the current bell and need to transition to continue driving progress)?

    My thought is that attaining the test goal shouldn't look like an all-out effort, as that wouldn't seem like "owning the bell" to me. If 1:1 work-to-rest is the goal, what would an approximate daily work:rest ratio be for that goal to be attainable, but not extreme - 2:1, 1.5:1, 1.25:1? I'm sure the answer is somewhat "it depends" or personal choice as Steve F. indicated, but I'm curious about yours or anyone else's personal experiences along these lines.
     
  12. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    You'll get differing opinions on this. My opinion is that if you meet the time standard and you want to continue to challenge yourself and progress, go ahead and move up by following the guidance in the book and working in the heavier bell one or two sets at a time.

    Excellent question there in bold! I don't recall anyone phrasing it quite that way, but that's great way to look at it. I would estimate the middle, 1.5:1, but it depends what your limiters are. For example, some people just can't catch their breath after 4 or 5 sets when they try to do the swings in 5 minutes. Others start to lose power. For some it's the grip. Or the technique just feels off, like they're losing tightness or control. These are all examples of why you don't want to run up against these limiters in your daily practice. Because any one of these occurring means that some of your 100 swings that day will be less than optimal, and therefore you get less of a training effect from them. Better to rest completely and get 100 swings where you can maximally express power and practice your very best technique. Then occasionally, like once every 2 weeks (or later maybe once a week) it's a good idea to push up against these limits either with the "non-stop swings" the program prescribes every 2 weeks once you're up to a certain proficiency, or with testing yourself with the time limits. These are always good learning experiences and teach you something else about your practice. They also seem to have a slightly different training stimulus (i.e. occasionally glycolytic) that can help your progress along.
     
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  13. Dayz

    Dayz Double-Digit Post Count

    I'm interested if there are any studies about goblet squats, swings, and Turkish get ups and bone density?

    There's a lot of research about the way that barbell work, particularly squats and deadlifts improve bone density. I assume simple and sinister must have the same effect, but not sure if the weight is sufficient
     
  14. Mike C

    Mike C Double-Digit Post Count

    Thanks for your input, Anna. I think I was only considering "conditioning" as the possible limiter, not grip, power, etc. so that makes sense.

    I like the idea of pushing the limits some every other week or so, even if it's not the all-out swing set (I'm not near using the 32kg regularly). I think Dan John recommended Tabata swings or goblet squats once every 2 weeks in one of his programs with the thought that it was powerful medicine that shouldn't be overused.

    I'm looking to recover my consistency in the new year after the inconsistency of the holidays.

    Mike
     
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  15. Nacho

    Nacho Triple-Digit Post Count

    Im a bit confused about GSQ weight.
    Pavel says to match the weight to swings, but it seems that many are not doing so... ?
     
  16. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    I like to use a lighter weight for the first two sets of goblet squats, then use my swing weight for the 3rd set.

    The goblet squat is for mobility AND to warm up the muscles for the work. If I jump in and use the swing weight for the very first set, it's more of a strength exercise and I am not comfortable relaxing and prying in the bottom, which limits the mobility effect. However if I use a light weight for all 3 sets, my leg muscles aren't as warmed up for the work, which limits the strength and warm-up effect.

    I think many people miss out on the benefit of swings when they do an inadequate warm-up. It's too easy to go almost straight to swings, and then your first 4 or so sets of swings are your warm-up (not as powerful as they can be). Then you only get 6 good sets that day.
     
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  17. Nacho

    Nacho Triple-Digit Post Count

    OK, makes sense. Thanks Anna, I will give that a try. :)
     
    Anna C likes this.
  18. Nacho

    Nacho Triple-Digit Post Count

    I haven`t added anything to S&S, but I just realized my calves & hamstrings are quite tight...
    What would be the best position to stretch them? Has anyone added some stretches to the daily routine?
     
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  19. North

    North Double-Digit Post Count

    Don’t forget the 90:90 and the QL straddle are a part of the routine.

    I used to have issues with my hamstrings. Part of the beauty of the hinge (when appropriately applied) is in the functional strengthening and stretching of the hamstrings. I would recommend a regression: practicing the unloaded hinge followed by a KB deadlift, then a waiters bow or Romanian deadlift hinge, then going back to the swing. John Engum has a 4 week program for untying the 4 knots you might check out (it includes the KB good morning which I knew as the RDL deadlift hinge). Find that program by searching his name online with the program. I liked the program and followed it really felt an improvement in t-spine. There’s a thread on this forum about it somewhere as well.

    Keep in mind I’m not an instructor. Good luck.
     
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  20. Chris Reed

    Chris Reed Second Post

    SFG coaches,

    I started S&S on 19 Jan of this year. I’ve been averaging training 6 days a week. I got my 32kg kettlebell on 29 Jan. The first week, I incorporated one set of swings with the 32kg and one set of TGU with 32kg for 6 days (i.e. swings: 10-20 @32kg the rest at 28kg; TGU sets 3-4 @32kg, the rest at 28kg ). The second week, I incorporated two sets of swings at 32kg and two sets of TGU at 32kg for 6 days. The third week I did three sets of swings and TGUs at 32kg with one ‘de-load’ day of doing everything with a 24kg. Am I on the right track with my progression to complete the Simple standard in about 7 weeks?
     

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