S & S Questions - Links

schurgerdc

Level 5 Valued Member
So here it is, my new quest for Timeless Simple!!! I'm hoping this is the right place for this question, b/c I feel it could be a thread in itself, but it directly pertains to S&S.

I recently started reading Q&D, and after 1/4 of the way thru, downloaded the updated S&S. Eye-opening, and worth it if you haven't done it already. For those who ask "can you do both" the answer is are you 1H the 32 for 100? If the answer is 'no' then re-read what I just said about buying the updated S&S!

Let's back up. I've been following S&S since it debuted around 2014-15 (it's a blur now), and I was able to get close to Timeless Simple in 2017, doing 100, 2H swings with the 32 & 10 TGU's. Pretty decent considering I was doing 2H due to an old right shoulder dislocation that was giving me grief. I hit that goal, and the next day got front-ended by a Jeep, which thru me & my training for a loop for 3-months. I lost strength, time & it took forever to get me to hold my atlas adjustment again (a pretty big deal for someone like myself!!). In the intervening time between then & now, I followed some programs from Geoff Neupert & others to build muscle. That's been eye-opening. All the while, I've kept S&S as my cardio, but not progressing past 24kg. If I did the 32, I'd be smoked, and always 2H. But having re-read S&S with the Q&D understanding, I see a new path for training...except I need help.

Couple of training items that I've been experimenting with. As I noted, doing 2H 32 swings smokes me. Even with more time between sets (I was doing around a minute) I perform the 2H with 32 best at 5 reps, then resting. That seems to leave some in the tank. While I got good at doing 2H with the 24 with 30-60s rests and not feeling smoked (days on end), doing 1H swings kills me for a day or two even with a longer rest. 16's don't give me enough feedback on 1H swings, so I'm trying 20, and that seems to be a sweet spot right now. I was able to do 10x10 this morning without trouble, including 5TGU's, 4-24, 1-32 (#3, 4 & it felt good). Right arm & neck feel ok, though the right hip was sore (glut med) after each right-handed set. That had me moving slow for the next couple of hours & I was ready for a nap until I ate 500g of beef heart. This post is a testament to my energy from meat, as I've been productive all afternoon since.

But back to my quandry...I've always felt like my arms are weak from an endurance standpoint. I understand they're supposed to be endurance muscles (so I could potentially carry back the aurochs that I apparently would thrive on). Something seems amiss with my arm endurance and would love some insights on how to retrain that.

I'm going to continue training 1H swings with the 20 for the next several weeks and maybe introduce a few sets of 24. I'm thinking on my deload/2H days to do low reps with the 32, slowly working that up to sets of 10 instead of 5's. TGU's will just progress back to the 32 per S&S. I appreciate the insights of everyone, and hope the training works properly to get me swinging the 32 1H by late Spring.

And yes, I'm going to eat the other 1/2 of that heart that I had at lunch for dinner. No weak bird meat for me ;-)
 

Matt L

Level 3 Valued Member
Hello!

is it okay for S&S to substitute two handed swings for the one arm swings for a sprained wrist? I am not able to hold the kettlebell for multiple swings with the left hand due to a bad wrist. How will these impede my progress in S&S training?


Thank you!
 

Oscar

Level 6 Valued Member
Hello!

is it okay for S&S to substitute two handed swings for the one arm swings for a sprained wrist? I am not able to hold the kettlebell for multiple swings with the left hand due to a bad wrist. How will these impede my progress in S&S training?


Thank you!
We do what we can. If you can do 2 hand swings, do 2 hand swings.

Do you have a chronic injury? Or do you think it's going to heal in a few weeks? If it's a matter of weeks, just do 2 HS and dont worry about it. You will be able to go heavier, which can bring additional benefits for a while.

If it's a chronic injury and you won't be able to do 1HS for a very long time, you will lose important benefits. You should consider first to try heal that wrist.
 

Matt L

Level 3 Valued Member
We do what we can. If you can do 2 hand swings, do 2 hand swings.

Do you have a chronic injury? Or do you think it's going to heal in a few weeks? If it's a matter of weeks, just do 2 HS and dont worry about it. You will be able to go heavier, which can bring additional benefits for a while.

If it's a chronic injury and you won't be able to do 1HS for a very long time, you will lose important benefits. You should consider first to try heal that wrist.
I think it will be fine in a few weeks, should I increase my swing weight since I will be using two hands for a while?
 

Oscar

Level 6 Valued Member
I think it will be fine in a few weeks, should I increase my swing weight since I will be using two hands for a while?
I would swing the heaviest you can swing for 10x10 with good form, recovering from day to day. It will be a different stimulus, so keep an eye on recovery and how your body reacts, and progress to heavier weights slowly.
 
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Matt L

Level 3 Valued Member
I would swing the heaviest you can swing for 10x10 with good form, recovering from day to day. It will be a different stimulus, so keep an eye on recovery and how your body reacts, and progress to heavier weights slowly.
I tried to practice outside yesterday so I was wearing shoes. My swings were so off. Like the force I was producing is being dispersed hard into the ground. I wore a pair of vans old skools for reference.

I know I was driving hard with my hips and glutes but damn, the bell has a hard time reaching chest level.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I tried to practice outside yesterday so I was wearing shoes. My swings were so off. Like the force I was producing is being dispersed hard into the ground. I wore a pair of vans old skools for reference.
Was the ground squishy? That could absorb some force.
 

Matt L

Level 3 Valued Member
Was the ground squishy? That could absorb some force.
I was on asphalt, but maybe the shoes soles were shock absorbent even though it felt "stiff". Maybe I just dont know how to balance while on shoes still.
 

bababear

First Post
Hi,

I just started this morning, feeling looser with the warm up, swings & get ups, and stretches. Feeling good!
Started with 5x10 2 hand swings @ 16kg, I found the recommended 24kg heavy and concerned with injury. Never done strength training before. Also using 12kg for the get up with difficulty on my strong side, stronger side no issues.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I wore a pair of vans old skools for reference.
There are all kinds of nerves/receptors in the bottoms of your feet. Anatomy is not my thing, but I do know this to be true, and also recall being told, by Pavel T. if memory serves, that even socks were enough to make a difference and bare feet is the gold standard here.

[TL;DR]
In the interest of full disclosure and at the risk of TMI, I train in socks because I get athlete's foot (medical term, tinea pedis) very easily, so easily that I've had to have, well, never mind, but you get the idea. It is on doctor's explicit orders that I don't go barefoot, even in the house, so it's shower, dry feet, apply antifungal, put on socks. And before you ask, I've tried everything, including changes in diet, all to no avail, and my podiatrist says he's never found diet to make a difference. FWIW, this wasn't a lifelong issue for me, it began at around age 50.

But you should train barefoot whenever possible.
[/TL;DR]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress. :)

-S-
 

Eric Wilson

Level 5 Valued Member
Is there an assumed pressing strength to begin S&S?

I've been doing S&S for about ten weeks, and am making progress -- using 24kg for 40% of reps, currently -- but my pressing strength is low, and seems out of proportion.

I'm a 47 year old man, 5'8", 125 lbs. I can do eight pull ups, but I cannot press a 16 kg bell. 16 kg is less than 30% of my bodyweight.

I wouldn't be surprised if the get-ups improve my press, but I wonder whether at some point it would be wise to give particular attention to my pressing strength. In particular, doing a TGU with 32 kg would seem a bit hazerdous if I am unable to comfortably press half of that weight.

What are your thoughts?
 

Malcat

Level 6 Valued Member
I’m currently doing S&S with 32x2 and 40x8 and have just moved up to pressing ladders with 20kg. I found floor press strength improved substantially as S&S weight increased and feel with less strong left arm have to concentrate more on weight stability moving up from floor to elbow but otherwise fine. Also think helps to use heavier bells than can press for carries, cleans, squats etc. and include bottoms up presses and armbars.
Therefore I think fine to progress getup weight despite disparity with pressing weight and both can improve but not sure one will necessarily progress the other without some specific focus
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Is there an assumed pressing strength to begin S&S?

I've been doing S&S for about ten weeks, and am making progress -- using 24kg for 40% of reps, currently -- but my pressing strength is low, and seems out of proportion.

I'm a 47 year old man, 5'8", 125 lbs. I can do eight pull ups, but I cannot press a 16 kg bell. 16 kg is less than 30% of my bodyweight.

I wouldn't be surprised if the get-ups improve my press, but I wonder whether at some point it would be wise to give particular attention to my pressing strength. In particular, doing a TGU with 32 kg would seem a bit hazerdous if I am unable to comfortably press half of that weight.

What are your thoughts?
It's a good question. I don't really know if there's a good answer. I also have what I assume to be weaker pressing strength than most. (Although not to a point that I have ever done anything to correct that) That being said, with all things being equal; I'm sure that being strong in the press is only going to be beneficial to the performance and safety of the TGU
 

schurgerdc

Level 5 Valued Member
Is there an assumed pressing strength to begin S&S?

I've been doing S&S for about ten weeks, and am making progress -- using 24kg for 40% of reps, currently -- but my pressing strength is low, and seems out of proportion.

I'm a 47 year old man, 5'8", 125 lbs. I can do eight pull ups, but I cannot press a 16 kg bell. 16 kg is less than 30% of my bodyweight.

I wouldn't be surprised if the get-ups improve my press, but I wonder whether at some point it would be wise to give particular attention to my pressing strength. In particular, doing a TGU with 32 kg would seem a bit hazerdous if I am unable to comfortably press half of that weight.

What are your thoughts?
I'm feeling your pain! I'm on the reverse side of this, as I'm doing 1H swings with 20kg, and only 2 sets with 24. But my TGU is good, with 2 sets at 32 & 3 at 24. Granted, I've been off strict S&S for about a year & have been following some of Geoff Neuperts pressing routines (KB Strong with both a pair of 20's & 24's over the past year). It's a matter of slowly building the strength up.

I think it comes back to what Pavel was talking about with grip strength. While I have the pushing strength for the 32, I don't have the pulling strength for the swings. As I think about the anatomy of all things involved, Pavel talks about how neurologic grip strength is. But what is all involved with grip strength? Is it just the hand? Easy, I can close a CoC 1.5 for reps. Still can't do more than 2 sets of 1H 24's w/o smoking me at this point. But when we look at a bigger picture, your grip strength will likely also increase when your shoulders are properly engaged. This goes for both pushing & pulling in my mind. KB Strong clearly got me able to do good pushes, but not for pulls. So I follow the progress of Timeless Simple to build that strength. For my presses, I'm moving along faster on the TGU b/c that neurological strength is there.

For trouble with the TGU, maybe you'd benefit from reduced motion (just moving up to the first bridge) instead of the full upright position. There's also a lot of evidence to suggest that a negative motion builds a lot of strength, suggesting that you could start with the 16kg in a pressed, overhead position & work the getup to the floor. Or just drop your weight to 12kg and make sure you have your form dialed in. For me, that means my pinky is pulling the bell towards my wrist & I'm punching the sky. Hope any of that helps!!
 

ClaudeR

Level 5 Valued Member
Is there an assumed pressing strength to begin S&S?

I've been doing S&S for about ten weeks, and am making progress -- using 24kg for 40% of reps, currently -- but my pressing strength is low, and seems out of proportion.

I'm a 47 year old man, 5'8", 125 lbs. I can do eight pull ups, but I cannot press a 16 kg bell. 16 kg is less than 30% of my bodyweight.

I wouldn't be surprised if the get-ups improve my press, but I wonder whether at some point it would be wise to give particular attention to my pressing strength. In particular, doing a TGU with 32 kg would seem a bit hazerdous if I am unable to comfortably press half of that weight.

What are your thoughts?
I am/was in the same boat, sub-average press strength compared to others (initially had trouble pressing a 16kg as well). I think pressing strength has a lot of genetics/body type components (I’d wager a guess you’re rather good at endurance things like running, hiking etc? Whilst not a clear correlation I have a gut feeling about this. @offwidth is a climbing and mountaineering machine and self reports a weaker press, giving some more credence to my hunch)

anyway, I achieved simple when I ran S&S with not much issue, and achieved strong and safe 32kg TGUs. Actually the swings were much harder than the TGUs!
Let progress happen and don’t think about it, it will happen as it should!
 

DarrenWilburn

Level 1 Valued Member
Apologize if this question has been asked. Started S&S in January after a very long layoff and really getting into the groove.

Any recommendations for some simple Push up/ab programming that would compliment S&S?
 

Molson

Level 5 Valued Member
@DarrenWilburn The most simple is pure S&S. Especially abs.

If you need more abs work, consider crawling or McGill’s 3, dead bugs, similar. A pool up bar gives you even more options.

Pushups - regular any time, one hand GTG would work best probably.

You can program this however you like. Off days, end of session, other part of the day.
 
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