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Kettlebell S&S similar to Tabata?

Wifi

Level 3 Valued Member
Has anyone else noticed that the swing portion of Timed S&S is oddly similar to the Tabata protocol? With the Tabata being defined as 8 rounds of 20s work, 10s rest, the only difference is that S&S runs for 10 rounds, since it usually takes me about 20s to do all 10 swings. Does anyone know if that is intentional?
 
A good question

What we got accustomed to as the Tabata protocol is 20 seconds on 10 seconds off..

So it's a 2:1 work to rest ratio

The timed s and s standards are roughly a 1:1 work to rest ratio (10 swings from the hike to when you park take about 15-17.5 seconds and you see 10 seconds remaining when you look at the timer)
 
I'd suggest that S&S swings are actually quite a bit different than a Tabata series.

The bulk of S&S swing training is not watching the clock but rather putting an emphasis on performing 10 quality repetitions on all 10 sets. The only situation when it's somewhat similar from a timing perspective is when an attempt is being made at completing the reps within 5 minutes. But even then, the quality of the repetitions should be the same (or very similar, at least) for all 100 reps.

On the other hand, the quality of work (e.g. speed, power) over the course of 8 intervals that compose a Tabata series degrades significantly from the first set to the last.

And I'd bet that most people wouldn't want to even attempt 10 get-ups after doing a Tabata series.

All that said, I think that any similarity is purely incidental.
 
It always irritates me when people inappropriately label something as Tabata Protocol just because one tiny piece looks like it.

The 8x 20s:10s work:rest is only half of the details. Each burst of work you also have to hit 170% VO2Max. Assuming you can finish the 4 minutes (most cannot) you are in such a state that you will not want to do any other work afterwards. Most will need a bucket as a receptacle for the contents of their stomachs when they finish the session.

You're never going to do that with KB's, especially if you are doing S&S properly. Outside of the test days which are once every couple weeks to once a month, your normal daily work is to take as much rest as needed to maintain perfect practice. But even on test days, you are not going to hit 170% VO2Max.

No, S&S is very much it's own protocol. And by respecting the unique protocol, you will achieve many health and strength benefits.
 
cwheeler33 said:
It always irritates me when people inappropriately label something as Tabata Protocol just because one tiny piece looks like it.

The 8x 20s:10s work:rest is only half of the details. Each burst of work you also have to hit 170% VO2Max. Assuming you can finish the 4 minutes (most cannot) you are in such a state that you will not want to do any other work afterwards. Most will need a bucket as a receptacle for the contents of their stomachs when they finish the session.

You're never going to do that with KB's, especially if you are doing S&S properly. Outside of the test days which are once every couple weeks to once a month, your normal daily work is to take as much rest as needed to maintain perfect practice. But even on test days, you are not going to hit 170% VO2Max.

No, S&S is very much it's own protocol. And by respecting the unique protocol, you will achieve many health and strength benefits.
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This.

Anybody who thinks swings are Tabata hasn't really done proper Tabata.
 
watchnerd said:
I also can't swing fast enough to hit the level of effort require by Tabata.

The pendulum motion also gives enough rest intra-swing to keep things below max effort.
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Have you tried the 2H swings Al Ciampa describes:

Swings​

One-hand swings should be performed as described in Simple & Sinister. Two-hand swings have to be overspeed. But here’s my version, an excerpt from my training manual:

“A proper swing is a tug-of-war between the opposing body lines: posterior v. anterior. The glutes, hamstrings, and quads forcefully catapult the bell forward, while the lats, abdominals, and hip flexors catch it and throw it back—compress the posterior spring, fire the spring, compress the anterior spring, fire that spring, then do it again. Both the hinge and plank position are maximally tight—maximum feed-forward tension—for the time the bell spends flying out, one is “relaxed- tight”.

Throw the bell from the coiled spring of the hinge into the tight plank—stay connected to the bell—”catch” it in the plank and throw it back down. Recoil the spring and snap back to plank. Repeat for a set of 10. Check your heart rate. Wow.
 
rwleonard said:
Have you tried the 2H swings Al Ciampa describes:

Swings​

One-hand swings should be performed as described in Simple & Sinister. Two-hand swings have to be overspeed. But here’s my version, an excerpt from my training manual:

“A proper swing is a tug-of-war between the opposing body lines: posterior v. anterior. The glutes, hamstrings, and quads forcefully catapult the bell forward, while the lats, abdominals, and hip flexors catch it and throw it back—compress the posterior spring, fire the spring, compress the anterior spring, fire that spring, then do it again. Both the hinge and plank position are maximally tight—maximum feed-forward tension—for the time the bell spends flying out, one is “relaxed- tight”.

Throw the bell from the coiled spring of the hinge into the tight plank—stay connected to the bell—”catch” it in the plank and throw it back down. Recoil the spring and snap back to plank. Repeat for a set of 10. Check your heart rate. Wow.
Click to expand...

I almost never 2H swing anymore.

When I swing, I do double KB swings.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies. I paid more attention to the clock, and indeed the 10 swings don't take a full 20 seconds. And I didn't realize that VO2 had to reach 170% on each set. Sounds even more painful than the one time I did timed simple, and that really sucked.
 
Tabata originally derived from studies on cycling if I am not mistaken. Which is not ballistics. Swing is a ballistic exercise. In my opinion even half of S&S swing protocol does not look like Tabata. I think S&S protocol is almost opposite of Tabata. Try Tabata with sprints on a daily basis where you max out 8 times a day with not enough recovery in between sets. You will be toasted in my opinion.
 
Ege said:
Tabata originally derived from studies on cycling if I am not mistaken. Which is not ballistics. Swing is a ballistic exercise. In my opinion even half of S&S swing protocol does not look like Tabata. I think S&S protocol is almost opposite of Tabata. Try Tabata with sprints on a daily basis where you max out 8 times a day with not enough recovery in between sets. You will be toasted in my opinion.
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Yes I believe the original Tabata protocol was done with cycling and even then I don’t think they did it every day, but I could be mistaken.

Doing tabata everyday would be a mistake for almost everyone. I’ve done it in the past when training for OCR. Have tried it with strep hill sprints, on a treadmill (with some adjustments), on a exercise bike, and jump squats. All of them were very intense and I only did them occasionally, usually when I was on a time crunch and couldn’t fit my prescribed volume in for the week.
 
For sake of clarification, I was referring specifically to TIMED swings, not the Timeless protocol. I agree that the intensity of timed S&S is not sustainable every day, much less actual Tabata.
 
Ege said:
Tabata originally derived from studies on cycling if I am not mistaken.
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Speed Skaters

A version of HIIT was based on a 1996 study[17] by Ritsumeikan University Professor Izumi Tabata (田畑泉) et al. initially involving Olympic speedskaters.
Ege said:
Swing is a ballistic exercise.
Click to expand...

Ballistic

"The science or study of the motion of projectiles, as bullets, shells, or bombs..."

Thus, in order for a Kettlebell Swing to meet the defintion of Ballistic, one of two thing need to occur...

1) Launching The Kettlebell

The Kettlebell must be lauched into the air at the apex of the swing.

Research has demostrated that allowing the bell to float at certrain point in the movement ensure a portion of the movement is not developing Power.

2) Jump or Hop

If at the apex of the Swing, an individual hops or jumps, it becomes a Ballistic Movement.

Quazi-Ballistic Kettlebell Swings

Based on the information above, the Traditional Kettlebell Swing is Quazi-Ballistic, not Ballistic.

With that said, Tradiditonal Kettlebell Swings are an effective training exercise that elicits a training effect. However, is isn't Ballistic nor does it evoke Power throughtout the Full Range of The Movement that occurs when a body or object goes airborne.

Banded Kettlebell Swings

For individual interested in Developing Power throughout the Full Range of a Kettlebell Swing; Banded Kettlebells do this...

Dr Craig Marker Banded Swings


Ege said:
...half of S&S swing protocol does not look like Tabata.
Click to expand...

Training Concept

The Tababa Training Concept can be applied to Kettlebell Swings and most other types of movements.

20 Seconds of Swings equates to a Sprint, followed by 10 second rest between Swing Sets.

The Tabata Protocol

I am not fan. While it increase VO2 Max it does so at the expense of Power.

Interval Training with lower rest periods between work sets ensure Power is maintained and developed to a greater degree while increasing aerobic capacity, such as with...

SuperMaximal Intensity Training

Longer rest periods between set are taken. This allows individual to perform a ReisistanceTraining SMIT Program with heavier loads; which produces and increase more Power and Strength.

Ryan Toshner

Ryan did an excellent job of breaking this down.
 
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I don ‘t think you can do real Tabata HIIT with any form of notable external resistance. The movement speed / muscle firing rate required is too high.

You can improve aerobic fitness some using moderate load metcons, but it won’t be in the same class as the adaptive response to Tabata. Even going harder, longer, and with longer rest did not trigger the same response as the 20-10 protocol, as Tabata himself observed.

Also, over time the lactate spike from Tabata is liable to be equal to or less than a session of S&S. Bottom line, the timing similarities are superficial.
 
rwleonard said:
Have you tried the 2H swings Al Ciampa describes:

Swings​

One-hand swings should be performed as described in Simple & Sinister. Two-hand swings have to be overspeed. But here’s my version, an excerpt from my training manual:

“A proper swing is a tug-of-war between the opposing body lines: posterior v. anterior. The glutes, hamstrings, and quads forcefully catapult the bell forward, while the lats, abdominals, and hip flexors catch it and throw it back—compress the posterior spring, fire the spring, compress the anterior spring, fire that spring, then do it again. Both the hinge and plank position are maximally tight—maximum feed-forward tension—for the time the bell spends flying out, one is “relaxed- tight”.

Throw the bell from the coiled spring of the hinge into the tight plank—stay connected to the bell—”catch” it in the plank and throw it back down. Recoil the spring and snap back to plank. Repeat for a set of 10. Check your heart rate. Wow.
Click to expand...
Is that shadow swings from S&S book?
 
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