S&S: Soccer GPP Adaptation??

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
Hey guys,

I'm new, and glad to be here! After stumbling upon this forum and searching for a while, I decided to see if I can join the forum, and here I am.

After researching about the best option to get back in shape, I searched online, having previously been fat, and later known about Kettlebells from 4HB sometime in 2011, doing the swings and street soccer games I lost all the fat, falling in love with soccer, getting in a semi-pro/pro soccer club, club disbanding, college varsity, and getting back to WFL/semi-pro soccer league, and losing my fitness, all in a span of 8 years, I am back getting my strength and conditioning in order... so after settling on S&S rather than StrongLifts 5x5(equipment availability + potential results = S&S > StrongLifts 5x5) for my GPP exercises(Off-Season Training), I added several adjustments which I'm interested in getting opinions if you guys don't mind.

Question: Relative to GPP and soccer, are these adaptations looking good/suitable?


SnS: Ideal

1. Warm-Up:
a. Goblet Squat-Cossack Squat
b. SF Hip Bridge
c. Halo-Windmill
d. TGU - 1x4 (Four TGU per side, so 8 reps)

Primary: Compound 5 sets
Two Arm KB Swings(30lbs, progress to 100 Total Two Arm Swings in 5 minutes/20 Swings per minute, then move on to 100/2 One Arm Swings in 5 minutes/20 swings per minute, then change to a heavier weight one set at a time.)
Active Rest - 5mins
30 skips, 10 goodmornings, 10 goat bag swings, foam roll until 5mins - all lightweight and relaxed exercises

Secondary: Isolation; 5x2
* Change exercise every two weeks
A. Lower
a. Bulgarian Squat/See-Saw Lunge
b. Single Leg Deadlift/Glute-Ham Raise
c. Lunge with Band/Hurdles/Runner High Knees

B. Upper
a. Overhead Press/Incline Press
b. Pull-Up/ KB/DB/BB Row
c. Pallof Press Up/Pallof Press Side/Pallof Press Side Skip

Finisher Core & Carry 5x2
*Change exercise every two weeks
a. Farmer's Walk/Suitcase Carry/Bottoms Up Carry
b. Plank-Side Plank-Reverse Plank-T-Rotation Plank
c. Turkish Get Up - 1x2 (One TGU per side, so 2 reps)

Cool Down:
A. MED
a. Cobbler Stretch
b. QL Straddle
c. 90/90 Stretch
d. Cobbler Stretch

B. Full
a. Foam Roller & Stretch or yoga

------------------------------------
The Isolation & Core and Carry exercises are done on a similar ideology from the KB Swings: focus on skill, not on weight. Lift hard, not heavy.

---------------------------------------------------

I did the lower body Isolation variation yesterday and so far I don't feel hurt and I believe I can do it again today, although doing the Upper body variation this time.

I aim to do it daily from monday to saturday, alternating Lower & Upper.
And Cardiovascular conditioning will come from futsal games every TTHS or biking, seldom jogging.

This will go on for three months, until the Off Season Phase is up.

--------------

So, how about it?

From a Soccer Off-Season Conditioning phase, how does it look? Any of the exercises I should change... or the sequence perhaps??

Any input is welcome, honest thoughts please.

Cheers!
 

Snowman

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Welcome to the forum, It sounds like you've been on quite the journey!

My comment would be this: I don't think you're going to get as much benefit from the extra stuff as you think you are, and I think you might be suffering from a common misconception regarding the 5 minute swing test.

None of the extra exercises are bad exercises, but I think you would get more benefit from narrowing your focus. Pick fewer exercises, and focus on getting in lots of heavy, high quality reps. Another important point to make is that if you're already training soccer, you're already getting a lot of endurance work. That means that the high rep and high intensity stuff isn't all that necessary, or helpful.
By the book, the time test is only to be done every once in a while. Most people take 30-60 minutes for a regular S&S session, giving themselves 10-30 minutes for the swings and TGU, and adding in heavier sets once they get their swings down to an easy 10-15 minutes. Once you take this into account, I think you'll realize that you can use a much heavier kettlebell than you thought you could. Once you start using a heavier kettlebell for a while, you will realize why you don't need the extra exercises.

People have successfully added extra stuff to S&S (pull ups, loaded carries, etc), but typically not until they've been doing S&S for a while. Start out doing things by the book for at least 6 months. After that, you will have enough information to make more informed decisions.
 

Bauer

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Welcome to the forum.

I second @Snowman
For soccer I would go for pure S+S plus Original Strength resets (with a special focus on hips and ankles).

Try S+S for, say, 6 weeks before you add any specific isolated exercises. Or even longer.

Your midsection will have to work a lot with proper tension and technique so you don't need your finisher rounds.
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
Thanks, I was 15 or 16 when the journey started. It was rough with lots of heartbreaks and fatigued muscles but now I know that I should pace myself lol, in training and in life.

... I think you might be suffering from a common misconception regarding the 5 minute swing test.
I was under the impression after reading the book that I should do it relaxed and take lots of active rests(5mins more or less, talk test) in between the swings, and make 100 swings in 5 minutes the goal before gradually moving to a heavier bell...

Like on a 30lbs Kettlebell, for the first few weeks you take 30mins or longer to complete the one hundred swings because of recovery time ( talk test ), and as you get fitter, your active rest duration shortens because you are immediately ready to do the set, and repeat that for a few more weeks... until you are able to do 10/per arm swings in one minute for five minutes with minimal rest?

So... the S&S Goal of 100 swings in 5 minutes... should only be pursued during Time Tests?

Are you saying that I should gradually(one set at a time) move on to a heavier bell once I am able to do 100 swings in 10-15 minutes(includes active rest) instead of the 5 minute goal I previously mentioned?

Or maybe, I can achieve the 5 minute goal on time tests when I am able to do the 100 swings in 10-15 minutes, and that is why I am candidate for moving to a heavier bell?


... Once you start using a heavier kettlebell for a while, you will realize why you don't need the extra exercises.
Is this because my muscles would get sore, or just the kb swings would improve my performance the same?

On a related note, I was going to a game, it was traffic, I was on a jeep(public vehicles on our country), the game location was 400-800m away from where we were stopped... and I got up from my seat, exited the vehicle, and straight up sprinted 60% of the distance.. I was surprised at my speed. So I slowed down to a jog. This was after 3-5 sessions of S&S.

People have successfully added extra stuff to S&S (pull ups, loaded carries, etc), but typically not until they've been doing S&S for a while. Start out doing things by the book for at least 6 months. After that, you will have enough information to make more informed decisions.
Yeah I'll be removing the isolation and finisher sections...
Here's something I'm curious about, from Dan John: Even Easier Strength

Advanced athlete’s warm-ups:

10-25 Goblet Squats
75 Swings (Sets of 10-25; really grease that Hinge Movement)
1-5 Get Ups (Half Get Ups are fine as is the Kalos Sthenos variation)


I guess, after my full S & S program(3-6 months) foundational strength phase, I'd do this for warm-up and proceed with the maximal strength exercises. That seem okay?
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
Welcome to the forum.

I second @Snowman
For soccer I would go for pure S+S plus Original Strength resets (with a special focus on hips and ankles).

Try S+S for, say, 6 weeks before you add any specific isolated exercises. Or even longer.

Your midsection will have to work a lot with proper tension and technique so you don't need your finisher rounds.
Thanks for the midsection thing.

What's Original Strength, and with the pure S&S, how do you think I would program my weekly schedule?
 

Snowman

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I was under the impression after reading the book that I should do it relaxed and take lots of active rests(5mins more or less, talk test) in between the swings, and make 100 swings in 5 minutes the goal before gradually moving to a heavier bell...
Ok, I stand partially corrected. I thought you thought something a little different ;).
You don't need to wait until you can pass the 5 minute test to start working with a heavier 'bell. Once you can complete all the swings in 10-15 minutes while passing the talk test between sets, you can start introducing sets with the heavier 'bell, even if you can't quite pass the 5 minute test with your current 'bell. Some people have found that a little work with a heavier 'bell is what they need to really nail the 5 minute test.

So... the S&S Goal of 100 swings in 5 minutes... should only be pursued during Time Tests?
Correct. You might get close to it on regular day, but you'll be better off not looking at the clock most of the time, and just focusing on doing your swings perfectly and getting enough rest between sets.

Is this because my muscles would get sore, or just the kb swings would improve my performance the same?
Heavy swings alone will improve your performance more than light swings+extra stuff. Also, once the weights get heavy, I think you'll notice that you have plenty to recover from, between S&S and soccer practice.

I was surprised at my speed. So I slowed down to a jog. This was after 3-5 sessions of S&S.
It's potent stuff ;)

I guess, after my full S & S program(3-6 months) foundational strength phase, I'd do this for warm-up and proceed with the maximal strength exercises. That seem okay?
That's a good option. If you really focus on S&S for 6 months or so, I think you next options will start to become a lot more clear. I wouldn't worry to much about planning beyond you current S&S cycle until you're a few weeks away from finishing it.
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
You don't need to wait until you can pass the 5 minute test to start working with a heavier 'bell. Once you can complete all the swings in 10-15 minutes while passing the talk test between sets, you can start introducing sets with the heavier 'bell, even if you can't quite pass the 5 minute test with your current 'bell. Some people have found that a little work with a heavier 'bell is what they need to really nail the 5 minute test.
I see, I understand it now. To get better/stronger, you have to play/swing with stronger/heavier opponents/bells. Thanks :)

Correct. You might get close to it on regular day, but you'll be better off not looking at the clock most of the time, and just focusing on doing your swings perfectly and getting enough rest between sets.
I actually have footage of my swings and tgu, and watching it in swing breaks.. So far it's causing me to take too much time lol
Heavy swings alone will improve your performance more than light swings+extra stuff. Also, once the weights get heavy, I think you'll notice that you have plenty to recover from, between S&S and soccer practice.
I see. I am worried about hypertrophy though. If the heavy swings make me heavier, I think that will not help . I'm currently light.
Will the heavy swings cause hypertrophy? Or it will not happen if I take the frequent breaks between 20 swings?
That's a good option. If you really focus on S&S for 6 months or so, I think you next options will start to become a lot more clear. I wouldn't worry to much about planning beyond you current S&S cycle until you're a few weeks away from finishing it.
I guess I'l see how it goes!

One thing I'm curious about though...

Is the one arm swing better than two bells two arm swing? What has been your experience?

Thank you again for the stellar replies!
 

vegpedlr

More than 500 posts
I concur on skipping the extra strength work. Like @Snowman said, it’s easy to start thinking more is better. As Dan John likes to say, “more is the enemy of enough.” Adding mobility work that is relevant to you makes sense. The only exception is the loaded carry. I think they under appreciated. I’ve benefited a lot, and I think they would be beneficial for soccer players by helping strengthen the ability to keep opponents off the ball, holding your ground. They’re easy to add at the end of a session, and can varied depending on how you feel.
 

Snowman

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So far it's causing me to take too much time lol
I wouldn't worry about taking too long between sets. Because of the soccer, the parts of your system that help with endurance are already being trained well, which means your biggest GPP gap is going to be strength and power, not endurance. Giving yourself extra time between sets will ensure that each set is very powerful. For comparison, if you were an accomplished powerlifter, then I might suggest that you focus on slowly reducing the time between sets to improve your conditioning, since you would already be very strong. One thing that's great about S&S is that it's able to fit a variety of people really well with very slight adjustments.

I see. I am worried about hypertrophy though. If the heavy swings make me heavier, I think that will not help . I'm currently light.
Will the heavy swings cause hypertrophy? Or it will not happen if I take the frequent breaks between 20 swings?
You will only get significant hypertrophy if you eat for it, like @Pantrolyx said. You might gain a small amount of weight, but it will happen slowly enough that your body will have plenty of time to adjust. In other words, it will not slow you down or make you less agile. I should also note that you want to take break after every 10 swings. If you do 20 in a row, the last 10 or so will likely not be very powerful.

Is the one arm swing better than two bells two arm swing? What has been your experience?
They are both good. One arm swings are very good as the primary swing (hence why they are the core of S&S), but two arm swing is a good thing to add in occasionally. The most useful versions of the two arm swing are the overspeed swing (as discussed in S&S), or very, very heavy two hand swings. I think one reason why S&S recommends overspeed swings is that many people don't have access to really heavy bells. Someone doing one arm swings with the 32 kilo would likely need to use 40-52 kilos for their two arm swings.
 

Nate

Triple-Digit Post Count
I always get into thought experiments about adapting / improving programs. Occasionally i remember if it was an improvement, it would be that way in the program already. pavel MAY know better than i do..... MAYBE. ;)
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
If you play a lot of soccer and don't consume calories in abbundance, then there is no reason to fear excessive hypoertrophy from heavy swings or TGU's. :)
...I guess I should start worrying about my body fat percentage being too low, huh? Just kidding but thanks dude! (y)
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
I concur on skipping the extra strength work. Like @Snowman said, it’s easy to start thinking more is better. As Dan John likes to say, “more is the enemy of enough.” Adding mobility work that is relevant to you makes sense. The only exception is the loaded carry. I think they under appreciated. I’ve benefited a lot, and I think they would be beneficial for soccer players by helping strengthen the ability to keep opponents off the ball, holding your ground. They’re easy to add at the end of a session, and can varied depending on how you feel.
"More is the enemy of enough."

Thanks, that did it for me.

I tried the Flexibility Steel video on youtube it seems okay. Can you recommend a mobility method?
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
I wouldn't worry about taking too long between sets. Because of the soccer, the parts of your system that help with endurance are already being trained well, which means your biggest GPP gap is going to be strength and power, not endurance. Giving yourself extra time between sets will ensure that each set is very powerful. For comparison, if you were an accomplished powerlifter, then I might suggest that you focus on slowly reducing the time between sets to improve your conditioning, since you would already be very strong. One thing that's great about S&S is that it's able to fit a variety of people really well with very slight adjustments.
Thanks, that makes so much sense!

You will only get significant hypertrophy if you eat for it, like @Pantrolyx said. You might gain a small amount of weight, but it will happen slowly enough that your body will have plenty of time to adjust. In other words, it will not slow you down or make you less agile. I should also note that you want to take break after every 10 swings. If you do 20 in a row, the last 10 or so will likely not be very powerful.
The 10 swing rest part is actually something I was curious about, so thanks for answering that. I do notice that I feel less focused after the tenth rep. Thanks for solving it.

They are both good. One arm swings are very good as the primary swing (hence why they are the core of S&S), but two arm swing is a good thing to add in occasionally. The most useful versions of the two arm swing are the overspeed swing (as discussed in S&S), or very, very heavy two hand swings. I think one reason why S&S recommends overspeed swings is that many people don't have access to really heavy bells. Someone doing one arm swings with the 32 kilo would likely need to use 40-52 kilos for their two arm swings.
I came to the conclusion that for my situation, two arm 2k swings are the worst things I could do, since it takes the worst of both worlds(one arm swing vs two arm 1kb swing) by 1.) not having rotational torque from one arm swings 2.) not having the maximal power/contraction benefited from the two arm swing since two bells will be too heavy for me.... but what's the actual benefit to two arm swings? I think I will be adding it one the third phase of my training.

And @Pavel Macek accurately sums up pages of commentary in a short comment, as usual ROFL
I'm a knowledge nut, I like learning about the reasons why I do things that I do, otherwise I have hesitations about doing it or don't do it at all ROFLROFL
So the detailed answers helped.

Thanks again dude, you've been a huge help (y)
 

Reventio007

Double-Digit Post Count
I always get into thought experiments about adapting / improving programs. Occasionally i remember if it was an improvement, it would be that way in the program already. pavel MAY know better than i do..... MAYBE. ;)
I mean, we're not just training for the GPP benefits, right? (For sports people)

So, it makes sense to believe that there could be something I do so that one stat is emphasized than the rest.

That's for the SPP though, and adaptations should not be done when aiming for GPP improvements.

At least, that's what I learned from posting here.

Glad I made the account.
 

Bauer

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Thanks for the midsection thing.

What's Original Strength, and with the pure S&S, how do you think I would program my weekly schedule?
Original Strength is a movement system that builds on developmental patterns like head nods, rolling, crawling, rocking. It is built around contralateral movement, stimulating the vestibular system and diaphragmatic breathing.

It is (a) extremely beneficial to mind and body (b) really scaleable (you could use it with heavily injured people - or build up to heavy loaded carries and sled pulls) and (c) it doesn't tax the CNS much - on the contrary, it actually helps recovery and stress relief.

The founder, Tim Anderson, is an immensely strong and nice guy. He could do a barbell TGU of 135lbs at a BW of 155 without specifically training it.
And he has crawled for a mile (in 44 minutes):

A lot of people here on the forum use it - especially for patterning movements, rehabbing, prehabbing and mobility. Personally it has helped me with winging scapulae, core stability, neck problems and wrist stability.

A good starting point is the book "Pressing Reset: Original Strength Reloaded". And just pick some movement snacks from the youtube channel and play around with them: Original Strength
 
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