all posts post new thread

Kettlebell S&S+suitcase walk and some questions.

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Kettlebell noob

Level 1 Valued Member
Brand new to forum first post sorry if I'm not using proper ediqute. Really sorry if this has been addressed already.

So to get to the point with details to follow below. I have decided to add suitcase walk (farmer's walk with KB in one hand) at the end of my S&S regiment as a supplemental grip strength exercise. Any thoughts as to whether or not this is a good idea? I believe the manner in which I've implemented them is consistent with S&S philosophy and methodology.

Details
I have been training S&S for approximately 4 months. S&S marks my first honest attempt at strength training. I've progressed to 24kg TGU and can complete 2HSW with 24kg easily but, find myself stuck at 16kg with 1HSW. I believe my form is correct having read and watched any SF content on 1HSW form and technique I can find. I've come to believe the limiting factor is my grip. Last I tested myself I completed all 10 sets of 16kg 1HSW with good form in 5 minutes with little issue outside of mild to moderate burning sensation in my forearms. Attempts to complete 2 out of the 10 sets of 1HSW with 20kg leads to poor form given that the KB at the bottom of the swing feels like it is going to rip out of my hand (small hands unfortunately run in the family). This leads to the KB shifting in my hand which ultimately is a cascading effect to poor form. Also, possibly dumb question but, should I preform 5 sets with one arm than switch (1-5 right hand than 6-10 left hand) or as I've been doing switch hands between sets (1R 2L 3R 4L...)

In an attempt to increase grip strength and ensure proper connection between shoulder packing and grip I've added suitcase carries. I walk approximately 66 yards (up and back 3 times in the pathway I've made in my cluttered basement) holding 24kg than switch hands and do it again (if my forearms start to burn I rest until the sensation subsides). I've only done this for 3 days but, so far haven't found any negative impact on my S&S performance. I have noticed a decent improvement in the form of my TGU (specifically lowering from elbow onto back is smoother perhaps a result of abdominal work in the walk?) and find gripping the 16kg bell slightly easier (definite increase in grip tightness around handle). I'd like to continue to implement suitcase walks. I plan to switch my 24kg KB with my 32kg KB when it comes in and, gradually increase distance to 110 yards (up and back 5 times)

Slightly less relevant details...
I've been doing martial arts (BJJ and muay thai) for around a year and a half. Strong grip is essential to success in these sports especially BJJ. I'm using S&S as suplemental training and have experienced a plethora of improvements as a result of S&S and strength training. I'd like to do an amature cagefight one day. If anyone has any additional recommendations for grip training/supplement training for MMA I'd appreciate any input.
 
Welcome...
Presumably your goals are to improve your BJJ? If so then that is the most relevant bit of information in your post. It's good to understand what ones real goals are so that training will support them and not be done in a haphazard manner.
S&S swings should be done 10 on the strong arm, park the bell, recover then 10 on the stronger arm. Repeat for 5 sets.

I think many people overgrip the bell on swings. But yes doing carries will help for sure your grip strength. The heavier the better.

Again... welcome to SF
 
offwidth said:
Welcome...
Presumably your goals are to improve your BJJ? If so then that is the most relevant bit of information in your post. It's good to understand what ones real goals are so that training will support them and not be done in a haphazard manner.
S&S swings should be done 10 on the strong arm, park the bell, recover then 10 on the stronger arm. Repeat for 5 sets.

I think many people overgrip the bell on swings. But yes doing carries will help for sure your grip strength. The heavier the better.

Again... welcome to SF
Click to expand...
Thank you for the quick reply and warm welcome. Two questions, is there a specific rational for the strong arm being used prior the stronger arm and, does this help to equal out strength imbalance between the strong side and stronger side?
 
@Kettlebell noob,

Some random answers/suggestions:

--Suitcase walks are a great exercise (not just for grip strength) and are fine to add to S&S.

--To transition to a heavier weight, you can start by using it for lower rep sets, if you can do a lower number of reps in good form.

There are a number of ways of cooking this. You can do single swings (also called "dead swings" or "power swings"); in other words, one swing and park the bell. You can do shorter sets of 2-5 swings. You can do hand to hand swings, switching hands while the KB floats at the top. You can do sets of 2-5 swings per arm, doing a hand to hand switch mid set.

You can do a few sets like this at the beginning of your session and then continue the rest with the 16. Your 100 swings don't have to all be 10 sets of 10, even though that is what you're working toward.

You could even go down to sets of 5 with the heavier bell throughout (if and when you are able to do sets of 5 in good form), and just do 20 sets. It's not strictly S&S, but follows the same principles, and a lot of people here have gotten good results from similar protocols.

--If you are not using chalk, try it; it makes a big difference.

--Yes, alternate arms, which allows for more grip recovery time between sets. However, if you start finding the 16 is no longer challenging to your grip (in daily practice done A+A style with longer rests, not compressed testing sessions), you might do any number of consecutive sets on one arm before switching to challenge you grip a little more with the lighter weight.

--There are a lot of subtle timing and form tweaks that can help manage the force on your grip so there is less of an abrupt stress as you reach the bottom, and as you reverse out of the hole. If you post a video, we might be able to make some suggestions. You can also preserve your grip by learning to vary how tight you grip dynamically thoughout the swing, relaxing more when the force of bell is less.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
Thank you, definitely helpful. Actually did reps of 5 to build into 1HSW from 2HSW initially. Guess I assumed the progreason would be more linear after correcting my form as this was the case with both the 2HSW and TGU in my case. Perhaps my form does need review, will consider posting video. Thanks again, definitely incorporating hand to hand swings the increased emphasis on coordination and focus will likely carry over to my muay thai training.
 
Additionally if you have the resources some personal instruction from an SFG or taking the one day SFG course is well worth the investment. Swings and TGU's are pretty simple but the nuances are many; it's important get dialed in correctly.

Additionally to answer your question of order of strong vs stronger arm... I believe the reason is that allows you to concentrate your effort on the 'strong arm' when freshest. I suppose in theory that might allow for more balance. I will defer to wiser folks than me for more complete answers.
 
Just thought I'd chime in because I think I have been in a similar situation with the 24 bell and thinking it was small hands and a grip issue. I can now do full S+S sessions with the 24 (nowhere near the testing time on swings) but I really dont think the issue was my hand size as my hands have not grown since. It might have partly been a grip issue that has been strengthened by continued practise but I reckon it has been weakness throughout my body (probably everywhere) and form issues that caused the initial problems. Now when I do a session my hand seems quite relaxed and the bell seems to fit fine.

So to give advice that I havnt followed due to my location, laziness and miserliness it would be to see a strongfirst or equivalent professional to get your form checked out (or post a video on the forum). That seems to be the method most recommended to make significant improvements.

Curious what the higher ups think of the farmer's walk/suitcase carry addition to the practice sessions as being a reader of dan john I keep meaning to add some to my practice.
 
offwidth said:
Additionally if you have the resources some personal instruction from an SFG or taking the one day SFG course is well worth the investment. Swings and TGU's are pretty simple but the nuances are many; it's important get dialed in correctly.

Additionally to answer your question of order of strong vs stronger arm... I believe the reason is that allows you to concentrate your effort on the 'strong arm' when freshest. I suppose in theory that might allow for more balance. I will defer to wiser folks than me for more complete answers.
Click to expand...

I was taught if you start with your dominate arm, you weaker arm will lose form faster and thus increase the chance of injury and/or develop poor movement patterns. Made sense to me so I didn't question it.
 
Which side to start with depends on the context. If it's a strength move, generally we start with the weaker side. OTOH, if it's mobility or other patterning-type work and the weight isn't heavy, starting with the side that works better can help the other side learn what to do.

YMMV so experiment. I sometimes start strength work with the strong side, just for the sake of variety. I've also found that, although it can be a bit of work to keep track of, I actually do need to follow my own advice and, if the movement is being done with bodyweight only, I will start on one side, but if I'm using a weight, I'll start on the other. The windmill is an example for me - I perform these regularly with no weight and start on my right side, but with a weight in my hand, I start on the left side. I will add that this isn't just a matter of philosophy for me but practical back management; I have a herniated disc, and for whatever reason, if I don't follow the "correct" order, my back will bother me. I have yet to understand why my disc gets aggravated if I start bw-only on my left side but if I start with a weight on my right side, but I've experienced it enough to know this is how it works for me.

Like I said, YMMV - those are the principles as I understand them plus my own experience with them.

-S-
 
I might suggest suitcase walks as part of the warmup, or between swings and getups. It would serve as a tension exercise to prime your nervous system for load.
 
After my S&S practice I'd farmers walk back and forth in my motel room. I always started with the heaviest bell on my strong side and then switch the bells for the second walk so the heaviest bell was on my stronger side.
 
Hello,

First, Welcome to SF !

Kettlebell noob said:
Any thoughts as to whether or not this is a good idea?
Click to expand...
To me, it seems a good idea

Kettlebell noob said:
can complete 2HSW with 24kg easily but, find myself stuck at 16kg with 1HSW.
Click to expand...
If you do suitcase, it will work a lot on both your core, and lats. This should help you to progresse with your 1H swing

Kettlebell noob said:
to moderate burning sensation in my forearms
Click to expand...
Suitcase will build you a strong grip, that is sure. However, be careful to one point : 1H swing works (among other things) the grip. So you you add suitcase, be careful to overtraining and excessive grip fatigue. It would be a pity to slow down your swing progression.

As an idea, I'd do something like 45s of suitcase each side, during 5 minutes (at the beginning). If it feels easy, then add weight or do it much longer.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hi,

How often do you train BJJ/Muay Thai? How often do you train S&S? Having trained BJJ for 11 years, training in a Gi, it can be quite taxing on the grips. Pull ups with a Gi or a rope will improve grip strength and pulling strength, both specific to Bjj. I train carries on a separate day to manage fatigue due to cranky elbows.
S&S is an ideal program to supplement BJJ.
 
Stubsie said:
Hi,

How often do you train BJJ/Muay Thai? How often do you train S&S? Having trained BJJ for 11 years, training in a Gi, it can be quite taxing on the grips. Pull ups with a Gi or a rope will improve grip strength and pulling strength, both specific to Bjj. I train carries on a separate day to manage fatigue due to cranky elbows.
S&S is an ideal program to supplement BJJ.
Click to expand...

I train anywhere from 6 days to a minimum of 3 days a week (2 hours of bjj one hour of thai). Typically only 2 of those days are done in a Gi. S&S average is about 5 days, try to shoot for 7 days minimum is 4 days. I do plan on GTG with pull ups, push ups, and eventually (after sufficient hip mobility work and core stability training) pistol squats, upon reaching simple standard.
 
S&S is perfect for judo, and I've done a lot of BJJ too, and it's just as good for BJJ. You might notice that the TGU movements resemble a lot of the movements from Guard position.

There are lot of exercises we can "add on" to S&S to touch it up, and the farmer's walk makes sense to me. I farmers walk when I buy groceries - I always use the hand held baskets there and not the carts.

To strengthen the grip you'd probably need a very heavy kettlebell to farmer's walk with.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom