all posts post new thread

Kettlebell S+S swings 2x's a day?

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Strong Rick

Level 9 Valued Member
Hello Everyone,
I was wondering if I could do the swing portion of Simple and Sinister twice a day...

When Geoff Neupert retired one of the last things he put out was "Strength Shortcuts" where he was explaining Short training sessions multiple times day are beneficial for the body.

I.E 80-100 swings in the morning, mini session of original strength in the after noon(5-10mins), Squats in the evening

That got me thinking...

What if I did my main training in the morning(full S+S with the swings and getups) and then when I get home from work, doing the swing portion only. Maybe drop down a bell size and work on swing form?

I'm sure I am not only one who has had this thought. Would you mind enlightening me as to if this is a good idea or not please.

Thanks everyone!
 
I think it's fine, with the main caveat being whether you can recover from the increased volume in a sustainable way.

100 reps is intended to be a sustainable daily sweet spot. It MAY be a point of diminishing returns, but that doesn't mean there aren't any returns. I've spent the summer doing a lot of longer, higher volume sessions of snatches and double cleans (mostly 5 reps per set, but working up to 60 sets in a session), and experience big improvements in work capacity. When I started, 20 sets of double cleans w/28s was pushing myself. Now, 30 sets is relatively easy.

During the school year I'm very pressed for training time. I'm a teacher, and the main after school caregiver for my young son (since my wife often works into the evening). So I've been breaking my training up into short blocks that I can do during breaks when I am working in my office.

For instance, I might do sets of 10 swings on the minute for 5 minutes or a double clean and front squat ladder (1 clean/1 FSQ; 2 cleans/2 FSQ, etc. without putting the bells down). These mini workouts are usually 5 minutes or less and I don't get out of breath or sweaty. Luckily I can wear clothes to work that are not restrictive to lift in (usually black Vans sneakers, Vertx tactical pants and a polo or button down shirt).

I can easily accumulate a substantial volume this way. It is rare that I "only" do 100 swings in a given day; it is usually in the range of 120-200.

If I have the energy after work (mostly I DO have the time if I make it) I may do some additional training in the evening, and often longer sessions on the weekends.

I'd just advise to add volume sensibly and see how you respond.
 
S&S page 75: "Would a higher volume be more effective?.... Perhaps, but at what cost? ... More is not better, it's just more. ... StrongFirst puts a premium on strength and power.... If you are told to do a higher volume... you will unavoidably start holding back power... your goal would change from getting the desired training effect to just surviving. ... Another issue is efficiency. Once you reach a certain volume, you hit the point of diminishing returns... doubling your swings from 100 to 200 will not double the results -- far from it. ... 100 swings per workout is the minimum effective dose."

The answers are all there... Keep going back to look for them.
 
@Strong Rick, "a little extra work" would be more beneficial to your strength training (presses, squats, etc.) than for your swings. I don't think the getup, given how long it takes to complete a single rep, is necessarily the best candidate, but if you have a desire to work your kettlebell military press, double kettlebell front squat, or similar, you might be able to add that in the afternoons without overtraining. It would be an interesting experiment.

-S-
 
instead of doubling up, one can always work on putting more energy into swings...develop good hardstyle technique
 
Personally the only reason I would do an extra 10x10 would be as an auxiliary for burning calories if that is a goal. Long 10x10 sets are really easy to recover from (think of an "all day pace" for a runner or cycler) and you can probably knock out 3-400 calories in less than an hour while doing whatever you have to do around the house in between sets. Swing, take out trash, swing, prep dinner, swing, check mail etc. More my style than an hour on a machine watching TV, with direct carry over to KB practice. So far as recovery or diminishing returns go, an extra 100 swings 10 hours after your first set is probably not much different than a cubicle jockey vs. a warehouse worker both doing S&S. Nobody would tell the warehouse worker to work less at work throughout the day just because he did S&S in the morning...

If it is for form practice which you originally hinted at, I'd say for myself that smaller/fewer sets, and just basing the workout on mindfulness, observation, and improvement would be more productive.

Sometimes I just want to do more because KB's are fun and I can on a given day. That's when I just go outside and juggle. Toss it around and have fun. Warning, juggling is not official party style, is easier to injure yourself, and easy to ingrain "bad" habits. But it also teaches instinctive protection mechanisms from hurting yourself if something does go wrong in official practice, so kind of a double edged sword. I'd step down to the 16 to start with though.
 
I don't think more is bad. But I wouldn't double up on a movement pattern. I would spend the evenings adding a sport specific component instead.
 
@Jeffro makes a good point, it's certainly not like you have to do your S&S session, and then REST the whole remainder of the day. More activity is fine. But I too would recommend sport specific, or a walk, or supplementary practice of similar movements with no load (un-weighted get-ups, shoe get-ups), or re-enforcing the hip hinge pattern, practicing straw breathing... lots of options to further your objectives without doubling up on the same work. If your 10 x 10 swings are good and challenging and you are doing them almost daily, you won't want to do more.
 
Lots of great ideas @Anna C
THANKS!

@Jeffro and @Bro Mo thanks as well
As crazy as I sounds the simple no nonsense thinking always makes sense. I always just tend to complicate it in my brain....

A walk at night sounds like a great idea
as @Anna C said "reinforcing" my swing pattern unloaded sounds like a great idea also...

Thanks again everyone!
 
Do your pull-ups (variations/regressions) during the second workout or gtg when you can.
 
I don't think more is bad. But I wouldn't double up on a movement pattern. I would spend the evenings adding a sport specific component instead.

I think this comment is quite sound concerning two-a-days. Correct me if I'm wrong but even the oly weightlifters who train 2x daily do separate lifts for separate sessions.

Also, to the OP, what do you do for work? Unless you have a very low energy job, I would caution training that often as you would run quite a risk of over training.
 
I think this comment is quite sound concerning two-a-days. Correct me if I'm wrong but even the oly weightlifters who train 2x daily do separate lifts for separate sessions.

Also, to the OP, what do you do for work? Unless you have a very low energy job, I would caution training that often as you would run quite a risk of over training.

@wespom9 I manage a machine shop and all though I sit behind a desk sometimes it is not all day everyday.... 50% of my day is spent on the shop floor walking around helping the guys figure stuff out bending, lifting steel bars, doing A LOT of back forth walking on the shop floor.

I guess I was just looking to improve/practice my swing form and try and ingrain good mechanics/technique.... so it becomes seconded nature and I have great swing form for my Simple and Sinister sessions for my main training in the morning.

Kind of like how a golfer changes his swing.... you have to work out the bad and reinforce the good to be sure I have good mechanics for for swing. The only way I can see that happening is by doing more swings( good swing form) and constantly working,tweaking,feeling what MY perfect swing is. That is why I thought lightening the load would be beneficial.

You guys have really opened my eyes from a previous post( my 24kg form check post from last week) that my form was all kinds of messed up. Since then I have been working on keeping my chest open/ proud and really working on hinging at my hips without squating. In one week I believe I have made strides but still have a long way to go! Ever since I have been focusing on keeping my chest open and straight in my goblet squats and like another poster pointed out when I hinge back to keep my chest up like I was tied back with tether strap because it will help me "sit back" into my hips more it has made my swing feels better. I also have "sore" feeling in the center of my "T" spine which "I think" is a good thing... because I am now using muscles that I haven't in a VERY LONG time. Just to be clear, it is a little sore, in no way is it pain or discomfort.

All in all I am searching for the "perfect swing" form.... if that is even achievable.
 
after you learn the basics of form, doing the S&S workout consistently for a longer period of time will give you the adaptations you're seeking. Like it says in the book, focus on every rep, strive for crisp hip snaps with strong plank at the top. Perfect practice makes perfect...
 
@Strong Rick I would say in that case then don't worry about the volume on that last session, about completing the 100 swings; just practice. Do a couple, stop. Do a few more, stop. Think about one thing at a time. Take long rests. Do not concern yourself with replicating the 10 sets of 10 for the night practice session
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom