Kettlebell S&S taking much longer than expected

[blad51]

You are:

#1, using a heavier weight
#2, trying to keep your heart rate down
#3, trying to fit it all into a specific time

You can't have all three - pick any two:

You can have #1 and #2: go heavy weight, keep your heart rate down, at the expensive of #3's shorter time frame.​

​

You can have #1 and #3: go heavy, take shorter rests, at the expense of #2's higher heart rates.​

​

You can have #2 and #3: go lighter, stick to your target heart rate and target time, but you'll have given up on #1.​

You don't have to pick your two goals and stick with them forever.

I really like your answer! It is a great way to think about one's options with S&S sessions.

 

[Steve Freides]

I really like your answer! It is a great way to think about one's options with S&S sessions.

Thank you. Many things work this way.

-S-

 

[lais817]

Just to add my 2c worth, my understanding of the talk test is, like you are doing a slow/steady jog with a friend and are still able to chat with them while you are jogging

 

[Starlord]

Thanks for your response! I got the HR monitor on my own volition. My SFG instructor never mentioned it. I decided to start it last month, assuming it would be more accurate and potentially healthier and more anti-glycotic.

And that’s the thing, though. Even talk test takes quite some time, but maybe I am very strict about it. To me, I aim for normal discussion level with no noticeable breathing patterns that would indicate that I just did swings, so how I would talk if someone dropped by my office at work to ask a question . So, before I had the HR monitor, that would be about 3 minutes rest between sets. So, 30+ minutes for swings alone. But, I guess the idea is rather “able to talk, but still allowed to huff and puff a bit”?

And I guess the warmup and stretching are not actually factored into the “30 minute” duration?

I discussed it with some friends who have experience with kettlebells and they said if they followed the talk test in their workouts, then they would definitely be taking much longer and they could not imagine finishing swings and getups that fast if saying the pledge clearly was the test, but I guess, as mentioned, we are all taking the criteria too strictly.

Or perhaps we have to push ourselves to train the talk test and do the movements in 30 minute?

Best wishes,
Rob

So the talk is the ability to maintain a conversation. With short sentences. You aren't able to talk of the intricacies or Frederick Nietzsches work.

 

[Steve Freides]

I got the HR monitor on my own volition. My SFG instructor never mentioned it. I decided to start it last month, assuming it would be more accurate and potentially healthier and more anti-glycotic.

And that’s the thing, though. Even talk test takes quite some time, but maybe I am very strict about it. To me, I aim for normal discussion level with no noticeable breathing patterns that would indicate that I just did swings, so how I would talk if someone dropped by my office at work to ask a question . So, before I had the HR monitor, that would be about 3 minutes rest between sets. So, 30+ minutes for swings alone. But, I guess the idea is rather “able to talk, but still allowed to huff and puff a bit”?

Please revisit pages 77-80 of the print edition of Kettlebell Simple and Sinister, Revised Edition, where the talk test is discussed. This specifically includes the suggestion to stay away from heart rate monitors for purposes of S&S.

-S-

 

[marvinthemartian]

I haven't read the book in a while but I am pretty sure the book never advertises the program as a 30 minute program. When you are learning the exercises you are supposed to only plan a 30 minute workout. But that's so you don't have to worry about reps/sets etc and can focus on practice.

Right now Timeless Simple is a 40 minutes training session for me. But working up to Timeless Simple was more like 45-60 minutes.

Warmup with 16kg: 5-10 minutes
Swings 32kg: 10 minutes
TGUs 32kg: 10 minutes
Stretching: 10-15 minutes

 

[Bauer]

@Mark Limbaga - can you elaborate on crawling for time? Send a link or something? Thanks!

Here is another one from an SFG, Louka Courcer, that looks very promising:

Six Week Crawling Plan Part 1 - Hardstyle Kettlebell

Crawling works your muscles like you wouldn't believe and it does wonders for your core. Check out this six week crawling plan!

hardstylekettlebellpro.com

 

[Manuel Fortin]

First, I am a BIG fan of S&S! I am 35 and in 8 months, I have achieved the most strength and conditioning I have had in my whole life. I am stronger (measured by deadlift, goblet squad, and bench) and more resilient (measured by ruck duration, ease, and speed, as well as overall mobility and elimination of joint pain) than I was after 5 years of training in my 20’s (I was a mess back then).

I am currently doing 6 sets of the movements with the 32 and 4 sets with the 24. I have had some coaching from an SFG2/SFB instructor and I have started using an H10 heart monitor and following Al Ciampi’s heart rate method. My target HR is 155. I have found that I need to let my heart rate reset to 120 before I start another set, or else I go over 165. However, if I wait a few minutes longer, until I am below 110, I still shoot up to about 163. Anyway, if I follow this method, it takes me about an hour and a half to finish all swings and TGUs. Combined with the 15 minute warmup and about 15 minutes of stretching, I am at 2 hours for an S&S session. If I follow the talk test, then I am closer to an hour and 40 minutes, sometimes an hour and a half. Sometimes I also do a bit of hanging (as recommended in the book) and have added in some pull-ups (as recommended in a recent strongfirst email), adding more time.

2 hours is a bit on the long side. As others have said, no need to be completely rested after each set. Getting a bit out of breath during the swings is normal, but recovery should be until you are "ready to go", not totally complete, as your rest state.. Are you sure it takes you "a few minutes" to go from 120 to below 110 BMP? That seems very long. What is your resting HR?

You have been training S&S for 8 months, but depending on your background, your aerobic engine may not be up to par while your strength could be. If your aerobic fitness was not very good, it may take more time to get your body to adapt. If you need to get fitter mitochondria and to produce more of them, this will take some time, so what you experience may be normal. If your sets of swings get you deep into glycolysis, it may take a lot of time to go back to being able to repeat it. If you strength trained before, you may be strong enough for a set of 10 swings with the 32, but not aerobically fit enough to handle it with the type of programs that S&S is.

If aerobic fitness is the problem and you run S&S as a glycolitic program, you will not get the advertised benefits. One solution would be to use the 24 only, and have shorter sessions, every day. Another solution, but that is no longer the program, is to keep on using the 32 but do shorter sets, say sets of 7. Start with 10 sets and increase slowly the number of sets until you can do the 100 swings in a reasonable amount of time. Then, get to sets of 8, then 9, then 10.

Another thing, can you do the time standard with the 24?

 

[intox8907]

Hi all,

thanks for all of the great and comprehensive posts! I will respond to each in turn here, but first, let me give three general responses:

1) As mentioned by @Bauer , the Kindle book mentions on page 26 that the main session should be about 30 minutes. Also, I have once seen Pavel Macek mention that one of the reasons he is a fan of S&S is because "I only need to spend 30 minutes on it per session". There is also this post (Kettlebell - S&S Total Workout Time) that I only came across today (or else I probably would not have started this discussion...), where it does seem common that people have the impression that S&S is a 30 minute program. I have seen similar claims on Reddit. Mr. Macek also mentions there that he spends about 30-45 minutes on it. While that is not advertising (I will adjust the title of my post; I was being a bit loose with the term), he is a very well known and respected SFG, so when he says something that largely deviates from my experience, then I think either I am wrong or the description of the program is wrong. Needless to say, it is basically always me that is wrong. All respect to Mr. Macek of course; I do not mean anything disrespectful or rude and I hope that is clear. Just expressing the confusion I had.

2) I have not yet discussed any of this with my SFG instructor. So, please do not have the wrong impression that a SF instructor is walking around telling people to spend hours a day on S&S. I have not been able to meet with them for some time, so I decided to raise the question here.

3) I now know where my confusion has come from this whole time. This part of the book stuck in my mind:

For American readers, a proven passage to recite for the talk test is the Pledge of Allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Tsatsouline, Pavel. Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition (p. 148). StrongFirst, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

My memory was that the Pledge of Allegiance is much longer than this quoted line, so as written, I assumed this was written in a bit of a conversational way and that actually an ellipsis (...) was missing after "and justice for all", so that the intention was to say, "You should be able to recite the whole pledge." EDIT: HOWEVER, @Steve W. has made it very clear to me that I was completely wrong about the length of the pledge. It is indeed only one sentence. Although I am American, I have lived overseas for almost a decade, so maybe my memory is failing me because of that, but I strangely have memories that it is much longer. Okay, then, my fault! Sorry!

@Bauer
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I think everything is good.

Great!

Then there are recovery tactics between sets (also between warmup sets):

I am familiar with these methods, but have not tried using pursed lips. I will give that a go!

Hope that helps!

Indeed, it does. Thanks!
Thanks also for the crawling plan from Mr. Courcer. I will have to try that soon enough.
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@3letterslong
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Limit yourself to 30 minutes and see how many rounds you can fit in there, continually trying to improve?

I was starting to consider that and might do that as a once-a-week routine, since I am closing in on training for timed Simple anyway. Thanks!
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@Anna C
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Don't fret about the maximum HR. Al eventually moved away from that philosophy.

Ah, okay, I was not aware that he moved away from it. Did he post his reasoning somewhere? It seemed to me that training based on HR could be beneficial. EDIT: Ah, I see now where he posted about that. It is here: Kettlebell - S&S Total Workout Time Okay, so he recommends just making sure there are clear peaks and valleys of similar heights throughout the session, like a tilted sine wave, if you want to go the HR route. I see, thanks!

use the talk test (you want to be able to say phrases, not necessarily sentences)

Ok, good to know. I obviously had the wrong impression.

I have a complete session video which may give you some "pacing" for warm-up and cool down.

Many thanks! I hope to move as fluidly, consistently, and strongly someday This is really helpful. Now that I see how you do it, I see that I am making the prying goblet squats longer and more difficult than they need to be. It is recovering from my goblet squats that causes my warmups to take longer than other people.
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@oukeith1
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My S&S sessions consistently take a little over an hour, using the talk test.

Thanks. Now that I have corrected my understanding of the talk test, I can probably start managing the same time.
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@Anth
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My best timeless simple sessions (the ones that left me feeling the best) were the ones that I did with a partner and took over an hour.

Although I was concerned about how long it was taking me, I do agree that the long sets feel quite good. When every movement feels crisp and on target without sweating or breathing hard, it is a really nice feeling overall.
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@Mark Limbaga
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At times you may need to take a strength detour.

Thanks! I might do this... I wanted to see how far S&S alone would get me, so I'll stick to that until the official 1-year journey to timeless Simple is complete.
And thanks for the link to the Original Strength article about crawling. It encouraged me to finally sit down today and read the whole "Pressing Reset Reloaded" book. Great stuff. I did the Resets today before going for a walk and it felt wonderful!
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@JeanneRising
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I got the feeling maybe you could get more out of the 24 before increasing the weight?

Thanks. I do still go back every now and then and do a pure 24kg session. My SFG instructor felt that I was at a point that I could start mixing in a 28 and 32 and when he said that, I was almost at that progression point in the book, so I followed his advice. I did try to time myself with the 24 one day and managed all the swings and TGUs in 25 minutes, which was cool, but tough! So, yes, once I reach timeless Simple, I will definitely go back and work towards a comfortable EMOM with the 24 before moving on to Timed Simple training.
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@John K
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You want to be able to say a 12-15 word phrase in one breath without gasping.

Thanks. There was my misunderstanding. EDIT: I had a false memory that the pledge is more than one sentence; I incorrectly thought it was more like a paragraph.
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@spc
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5 min warm up

I still have no idea why, but the warm up is actually the most challenging part of the whole program for me. The 16kg prying goblet squats always leave me completely gassed and this is after months of practicing them regularly. After watching @Anna C 's video, I see that I am making them more complicated than they actually are.
Thanks for providing the rest of the details. That is useful orientation for me and I will add in the "arms over head" drills too.
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@Benjamin Renaud
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Working on breathing exercises

There was a time when I would do that, but it is long ago. I will start doing that, too. Thanks!
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@BJJ Shawn
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Also, 15 minutes for warmup is WAY too much IMO.

It is the 16kg prying goblet squats with some curls that really gets me. The bridges and halos I could do all day long, but the prying goblet squats (especially with a curl) still are murder for me. However, after watching @Anna C 's video, I see that I am making them more complicated than they actually are. I usually find myself panting and feeling like I am already tapping into reserve strength by the 3rd or 4th squat. Relative to how they feel, the swings and TGUs feel like a walk in the park for me.

Waiting until 110 or even 120 is way more than what I would think you need to do in between sets of swings or getups.

Okay, good to know. The Al Ciampi article is the only thing I have really read about HR training, so I have lot to learn about that, such as what zones/ranges for what tasks and so on.

I might suggest you may need to work on your aerobic capacity for a bit

Aerobic capacity has always been one of my weakest points, so that definitely plays a role, too. Now that I see my misunderstanding about the talk test, I will hopefully be able to better train and improve aerobic capacity through S&S, too.
============

I have hit the character limit, so will be splitting this into two posts.

Again, thanks to all of you! This was very helpful and I am very thankful.

Best wishes!

 

[intox8907]

@Steve Freides
============

Engineers have a saying similar to this: "Light, Cheap, Strong - pick any 2."

Thanks! I agree, but my confusion originally stemmed from it still taking basically just as long when just following the talk test (well... my false idea of the talk test).

NB: I don't believe S&S suggests using a heart rate monitor.

Please revisit pages 77-80 of the print edition of Kettlebell Simple and Sinister, Revised Edition

Actually, on pg. 21 of the Kindle Revised Edition, it does recommend getting an HR monitor and to stop walking around (so, I guess to start your next set; EDIT: previously I erroneously said that you should start the next set, but the book only says to stop walking around) "when your HR is halfway down to normal". On pg. 145 of the Kindle Edition, there is additional evidence that monitoring HR is useful for S&S. There is no mention of heart, HR, or monitor anywhere else in the Kindle version and there is only discussion of swing technique on pages 77-80 of the Kindle edition. However, I had forgotten that the Kindle version recommends an HR monitor. Rather, my assumption was just that the talk test was like a poor man's HR monitor, so when I saw Al Ciampi's article, I thought, "ah cool, an interesting way to make the whole program more accurate and potentially more heart healthy and more anti-glycotic". In the article, Al mentions that over time your training will lead to your HR recovering faster for the same amount of effort and my thought was that since I am 8 months in, then maybe the HR monitor would show that actually I can go a lot faster and that I was just being too strict with the talk test. Indeed, it turns out that I was being too strict with the test and can potentially go a lot faster, but since I was not sure really how to interpret the HR monitor, I thought either I had completely misunderstood Al's article or something might be really wrong about what I am doing. So, then I decided to just come to the forum and get it all cleared up, which it now is, thanks to you and the rest!
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@Max Parish
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You could try shortening your rests little by little until you notice this happening, then back off, paying attention to how your body feels throughout.

Thanks! I will do that, too.
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@marvinthemartian
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I haven't read the book in a while but I am pretty sure the book never advertises the program as a 30 minute program.

Yes and no. While it advises that you take longer if necessary, it also says on pg. 26 of the Kindle Edition: "Your session is barely half an hour long; stay focused." Also, on various forums, such as Reddit, people speak of S&S either directly or indirectly as being a "short, often 30 minute, program for busy people".
Thanks for the details about your timing! That provides great perspective for me.
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@Manuel Fortin
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Are you sure it takes you "a few minutes" to go from 120 to below 110 BMP? That seems very long. What is your resting HR?

Hmmm... it takes about 1 and a half to 2 minutes, so okay, not a few, but still longer than I expected. I just strapped my H10 on and sat for a few minutes. It reports my resting HR as roughly 65 BPM.

If your aerobic fitness was not very good, it may take more time to get your body to adapt.

This certainly plays a role. Before starting S&S, I had been a couch potato for several years, with frequent drinking, poor diet, terrible sleep habits, and smoking. But even before that, when I was more active and healthier, I did not enjoy aerobic training and actively avoided it. I found kettlebells attractive, primarily because I finally saw a fun way to combine strength with aerobics. Now that I better understand the talk test, I hope that I can get more aerobic.

One solution would be to use the 24 only, and have shorter sessions, every day.

Yes, I might need to accept that I should step down a bell size for a bit and work on that.

Another thing, can you do the time standard with the 24?

Two weeks ago, I tried to do an EMOM session with the 24 and completed all swings and TGUs in 25 minutes. It was tough, but not as bad as I was expecting, so perhaps with a bit more training, I could hit the time standard with the 24. After my past few months mixing in the 32, the 24 is not so bad to work with overall.
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Again, thanks to all of you! This was very helpful and I am very thankful.

Best wishes!

 

[intox8907]

I cannot determine how to change the title of my post, but if I could, I would change it to:

S&S taking much longer than expected​

 

[intox8907]

@lais817
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my understanding of the talk test is, like you are doing a slow/steady jog with a friend and are still able to chat with them while you are jogging

Thanks, that provides additional perspective that helps me. I hate jogging, but because of that, the idea is now clear
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@Starlord
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You aren't able to talk of the intricacies or Frederick Nietzsches work.

Thanks, I understand now. Unfortunately, I am not able to talk about the intricacies of his work, regardless.
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Best wishes!

 

[Steve W.]

The Pledge of Allegiance is much longer than this quoted line, so as written, I assumed this was written in a bit of a conversational way and that actually an ellipsis (...) was missing after "and just for all", so that the intention was to say, "You should be able to recite the whole pledge." If I could make an ignorant suggestion, if there ever is another version of the book, I would recommend that this should say "recite the first line of the Pledge of Allegiance".

Umm...The Pledge of Allegiance is only one sentence. There isn't any more to it.

It was written by Francis Bellamy, a socialist minister, and first published in 1892. Despite being a Baptist minister, Bellamy believed in the absolute separation of church and state, and very deliberately omitted any mention of God in the pledge. He was also strong critic of capitalism who "championed 'the rights of working people and the equal distribution of economic resources, which he believed was inherent in the teachings of Jesus,'" [The Pledge: A History of the Pledge of Allegiance] and evidently often referred to Jesus as a socialist.

He also wrote the following passage:
"Where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another every alien immigrant of inferior race may bring corruption to the stock. There are races more or less akin to our own whom we may admit freely and get nothing but advantage by the infusion of their wholesome blood. But there are other races, which we cannot assimilate without lowering our racial standard, which should be as sacred to us as the sanctity of our homes."

One nation, indivisible, indeed.

Originally the pledge was written as a generic pledge that could be said by a citizen of any country:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It was formally adopted by Congress in 1942, with the wording specific to the United States of America:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, the phrase "under God" was added:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It's 31 words in total in its present form.

 

[intox8907]

@Steve W.
Oh my god, holy s***, it's true... I am actually American, but have been living overseas for almost a decade, so I will just blame it on that... Wow, my memory is really that it is much longer. Strange...

Okay, so that clears up the final piece of the puzzle! Thanks!

Best wishes!

 

[Wyanokie]

@intox8907 , you got a lot of great advice here, just one thing I wanted to point out. Consider your mindset going forward. First you said:

I am 35 and in 8 months, I have achieved the most strength and conditioning I have had in my whole life. I am stronger (measured by deadlift, goblet squad, and bench) and more resilient (measured by ruck duration, ease, and speed, as well as overall mobility and elimination of joint pain) than I was after 5 years of training in my 20’s (I was a mess back then).

Then you said:

Perhaps, I am took weak or move too slow.

Maybe step away for a few days to regroup before absorbing the great advice of @Steve Freides and others going forward? Most importantly, don't beat yourself up mentally or get caught in analysis paralysis on your journey, I've been there too and found it to be counterproductive.

 

[J Cox]

One massive factor for you to bear in mind is that the vast majority of people doing S&S will be using the talk test.

So for these people 30mins is very accurate.

You have deviated away from this by utilising recommendations from a coach. Nothing wrong with this, you are using data from a HRM as opposed to thr talk test.

It's just the way it is.

You know what, I was actually having the same issue. I was like, "this is taking forever" and here is the answer. Duh! Probably should dust off the old book to see what else I have forgotten since I last ran the program a year ago.

 

[Steve Freides]

I cannot determine how to change the title of my post, but if I could, I would change it to:

S&S taking much longer than expected​

I have just changed it for you.

-S-

 

[intox8907]

@Wyanokie
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Maybe step away for a few days to regroup before absorbing the great advice of @Steve Freides and others going forward? Most importantly, don't beat yourself up mentally or get caught in analysis paralysis on your journey, I've been there too and found it to be counterproductive.

This is indeed good advice and take you for your kind post. However, the bug bit me before I saw your post and I tried running a session this evening, incorporating some of the low-hanging fruit tips that have been provided in this discussion.
I do tend to be an "analysis paralysis" type of person in all endeavors, and I will certainly take the weekend away from the issue. I have to do a number of things for work and be away for the weekend, so I won't have a chance to do another S&S session until Monday anyway.
With the two posts you quoted, I guess I meant that although I feel my strongest ever, I am still relatively weak or at least average in the grand scheme of things, or I am just weak at squatting-like movements. I did find it weird that the prying goblet squats were consistently giving me so much trouble, but altering them to be more like what @Anna C showed in her video already helped greatly. They are still challenging, but it no longer feels like I am trying to move the world with a string on every rep.
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@Steve Freides
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I have just changed it for you.

Thanks!
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@Steve W.
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I forgot to mention: thanks for the historical info. I knew none of that and really like learning those kinds of things. It's interesting how culture mutates over time.
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Best wishes!

 

[intox8907]

So, as mentioned in the previous post, I ran a session this evening, incorporating the following tips that were easiest for me to digest and implement right away:

- Testing my ability to say phrases comprising roughly 30 words, but not requiring that I be ready to present a dissertation, as suggested by everyone
- Adjusting my depth, prying range, and duration of prying goblet squats to be more like @Anna C
- Pursed lip breathing, as suggested by @Bauer
- Including overhead "fast and loose" arm drills, as suggested by @spc and @Bauer
- Paying attention to find a quality balance between duration and "restfulness" of rests between sets, as suggested by @Max Parish
- Although I did not limit myself, I kept track of how many swing sets I completed in the first 30 minutes, as suggested by @3letterslong
- Ignoring the HR monitor (!), as suggested by @Steve Freides and basically everyone

Taken together, this would be combo #1 and #3 of @Steve Freides

With these changes:

- Warmup was faster and more comfortable, but still a bit challenging. It now took 10 minutes, but it could have been shorter, since I forgot that I had to briefly take care of an important work message.
- I completed all swing sets in the first 20 minutes of the main session.
- I rested for about 5 minutes between swings and TGUs.
- TGUs still took longer, a total of 35 minutes, since I like to feel crisp and focused on each rep when heavy weight is overhead.

So, in total, about an hour and 10 minutes, a huge improvement in time over before, and with more focus and training, I am certain it will go further down.

I still wore the HR monitor, out of curiosity, but did not reference it during the S&S session. I had the peaks-valleys of similar height, with a slight increase in average HR over time, which @Al Ciampa said is what the HR monitor should show, when following the talk test. During each set, I would briefly spike to 170-178 BPM, which is in Zone 5 for me, according to Polar Beat. Looking at the recording, I can see that when I could pass the talk test, I could see that I was always around 130-148 BPM for swings (so Zone 3) and around 115-125 BPM for TGUs (so Zone 2), but I deliberately wait a bit longer between TGUs. That is all great for me, especially since I now cover all the useful exercise zones in one session.

So, in other words:

THANKS A LOT!

 

[intox8907]

And one final thing, until recently, I thought my S&S durations were just something peculiar about me and that it would resolve itself over time. So, I have never actually discussed anything about endurance, aerobic capacity, or session duration with my SFG instructor. I actually only managed one online session and one in-person session with them and explicitly went to them for technique/form checks. SF produces very high quality instructors, so I did not want it to seem like anything was wrong with the instructor. Absolutely not; they are excellent!