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Kettlebell S&S tweaks

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somanaut

somanaut

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I am on S&S for the 3rd time, after a wrist injury that is healing nicely and falling off the training wagon. And I have tweaked it a bit. And I thought that I would share, perhaps I should have posted in the dedicated S&S forum, if so just move it.

1) Instead of doing the regular warm up, I just do single bell front squats, 5x1 clean and squat. I think that it has helped latissimus engagement and shoulder stability in the swing, and also with taming the swing arc. I feel more like an android in my swing, if that makes sense, where before my swing has often felt like a rag doll. Of course, maybe it has no relation, and my swing is just getting better with practise.

2) Because of my injury, I had to use an in between bell (20kg) between 16kg and 24kg, since my wrist could not handle the 8kg jump, the jump to 32kg was fine (I have only moved up to the 32kg in the TGU).

3) I used about 2 months to get back up to only using the 24kg as my practise bell. And the last month I have been testing once a week, I train 5 days a week. Each time I hit a standard with the 24kg I allowed myself to add one set of TGU with the 32kg instead of the 24kg, so after having tested the 24kg 5 times now, I am at 5x1 32kg TGU. After next test I will start adding the 32kg to swings. However I will be be switching all the sets out with the 32kg, but will start at 10x2. So 10 sets of 2 reps. I will continue to test with the 24kg once a week, and after each test I will add 2 reps each set, until I am at 10x10 swings with the 32kg.

4) I prefer on the minute swings and TGU (although I have had to insert breaks moving up to the 32kg in the TGU, will reduce them until I am back to on the minute), clean and squats are done every 30 sec in the warmup (1x1). Test days I do swings 1x10 every 30 sec, but keep the TGU at one the minute.

Note I: Writing this I am reminded of Pavel's dictum "you squat the bell you swing". And I might need to use a 28kg before I can move up to the 32kg. I am a big believer in front squats as an assistance exercise in general, and as a prep for mastering the rack position.

Note II: I am taking it slower than the other times that I have done S&S. And while my mind screams to jump ahead or switch programs pretty much once a day, I have managed to stay the course. And structuring the progression as outlined above, it has so far helped me stay on the course.

Note III: For fun I tested my MP with the 24kg one test day, and while it had not progressed (still at 1x1 left and 1x2 right) it had also not regressed! I am crediting that to the front squats.

Edit: Writing this I realized, that I should probably spend the next 5 weeks with reducing the breaks that I have put into the TGU, and get it down to 5x1 on the minute. And not start on increasing weight in swings until after that.
 
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I, unfortunately, have an wrist injury but haven't treated it. It just got better with time, though not as good to allow for MPs or TGUs.
After reading what you wrote here I'm considering to deal with my injury.
 
mikhael said:
I, unfortunately, have an wrist injury but haven't treated it. It just got better with time, though not as good to allow for MPs or TGUs.
After reading what you wrote here I'm considering to deal with my injury.
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Disclaimer: Nothing I wrote/write should be taken as any kind of medical advice.
My specific injury provided a problem for TGU and push ups, MP's were fine. Swings was a little bit of a problem, but soon was doable.
 
Just a thought, everyone - the goblet squat is part of the warmup, not an exercise per se in this context - those are the swing and the getup.

Please consider giving this post, which I authored and is a "sticky" in Training -> Other, a read. It talks about the Goblet Squat among other things.

Bottom line - I do my "goblet" squats without any weight because I can, and because the purpose of the counterbalance weight is to let you squat well, deeply, with the ability to move around in the bottom position without losing your balance. If you can do all that without a weight, you may. Still pick up a weight once in a while because it will change the dynamics a little - you can squat even deeper that way - but it's not necessary to use a weight for the squat as part of your warmup if you don't need to use one.

-S-
 
Addendum

While I am glad that I don't HAVE to FSQ the 32kg in tandem with S&S, I would like to add some notes on the subject.

I switched from goblet squat to front squat because it didn't feel good for my injured wrist and goblet squat is generally uncomfortable to do with competition bells (which I use). Also while I accept the goblet squat as a good accessory exercise, I do not think that it applies to me. Going all the way down and maintaining an upright posture is while not easy, not really an issue for me. Now that doesn't mean that I have good thoracic mobility, which I don't, but I can compensate with my hips to make it look like I do. I have found the (no weight) overhead wall squat to be more interesting for my thoracic mobility (and I should do that more). I am also wary of using accessory exercises just for the sake of using accessory exercises. Accessory exercises should be given to the specific athlete from a coach that said athlete works closely together, so as to monitor progress. I think it's very hard to generalise about movement or structural dysfunction without personal contact. And I do not believe that one size fits all with regards to optimal movement. Now that doesn't mean that most of us doesn't have tight hips, I certainly do in certain angles, but it's very context dependent. Ex. I can sit in full lotus but can't do split. And I have met plenty people with open hips that couldn't do moves that I could do. I think that the goblet squat is a good general exercise for Pavel to have included in S&S. But as has been repeated many times here and in S&S, be a responsible adult.

Anyhu...for the last roughly 3 months I have been doing S&S, worked my way up to swinging and TGU'ing the 24kg, and front squat'ing same bell. Before that I was doing a 5x5 MP press + swing program of my own creation, because that was all I could do with my injured wrist. My old PR with the 24kg was 1RM left and 2RM right, and it has been stuck on that for a couple of years now (after my first run of S&S I could not even press the 24kg with the left) so obviously I am very weak in my MP. A month a go (as stated in OP) I decided to test my 24kg for fun, and to my surprise it was stil 1RM left and 2RM right, with out any significant press practise. Now one month later (yesterday) I got bored and decided to test the MP again before my weekly test run of swings and TGU (10x10 1HS < 5 min, 1 min break, 5x1 TGU < 10 min) with the 24kg. And lo and behold! I broke my old PR and did 2RM with left side and 2RM with right side (right side was just to keep it even, I did not aim at more, the test was left hand focused)! And that is without any significant press practise between tests of the MP. WTH? My only possible explanation would be that TGU + front squats have helped, because that is the only difference that I can spot. Someone on the forum once quipped that front squats and overhead carry can lead to an increase in MP, that the bell figures out how to get from A to B, if you have a solid A and B position. I will not be using this method to further increase my MP (will be using ROP or 5x5 for that), but I did find it interesting (and of course happy that my MP PR has finally improved). I still believe that the MP (KB or BB) needs high volume for most people to increase, my suspicion is tha t it is more neurologically dependent that mass dependent (feel free to boo my unscientific thinking) than say the bench press.

I am not advocating that all should front squat (I am not advocating anything since I am not a coach), but it seemed to have worked for me, and in the spirit of open source strength training, I though that I would share. And I do find that substituting the goblet squat with that front squat is a good bridge for novices to pressing. Then the transition from S&S to an MP or C+P program would be easier.

TL;DR: FSQ + TGU = MP PR
 
Anna C said:
I love this summary :)

Congrats on the PR!
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Thanks! I should get it printed as a bumper sticker...but I don't have a car.
Today I was bored and in a bad mood, and what is a better cure for both than pressing heavy things? So in light of my recent new 2RM with the 24kg, I though that I would try to see how many singles I could do. And result was 4x1, with 4-5 min breaks in between sets (I did not rest between sides).
Going from a 1RM to a 2RM with same weight is huge, as I think that anyone that lifts any kind of weight will attest. The subsequent reps become easier (3RM, 4RM, 5RM...). However I was interested in sets, because that is what determines the next program. I have been looking at S&T, and with my 2RM and abbility to do 4x1 I could actually start it, and while I don't think that I would be able to follow the progression scheme right now, it does give me hope, that once I have "mastered" Simple, that I should be able to star S&T as my press program, while maintaining Simple. Of course I am happy that my press is improving even if is not an overall impressive press that I have, but progress of allmost any kind is good. Strong no, getting stronger yes. But what I find interesting is that my press is improving, without me actually pressing. I have now improved the volume and...density/intensity? And while there could be many factors that influence this, training frequency + quality, less life stress etc. (sorry don't keep a log, so can't tell for sure) the thing that does stand out is the FSQ. I used to be sceptical about the carryover effect from the TGU to bench press or military press, but maybe there is. Full disclosure, I allways floorpress my bell into TGU start position, so I do get some press training that way I guess, but I have done that the other times that I have tried S&S and my MP did not improve then, so while I won't rule it out, I don't think that it is that. I am also using comp. bells this time around, which I haven't done before, and they do sit different on the arm than classic bells. Maybe that they have the same size makes the press easier. I don't know. My money is still on the FSQ + TGU effect.

Edit: The point actually wanted to make was, PR's are nice but what is equally interesting is when it opens up for a new practise. Be that move, rep scheme etc. The practise is just as important, if not more perhaps, than the end goal.

TL;DR: 2RM -> 4x1
 
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I am going to second what Steve Friedes writes about there really being only two exercises in a typical S&S workout. The squats are part of the warmup. I do indeed do sets of squats (usually sets of 5 like in the book) to warmup, and often holding a kettlebell, but I do them for quite literally a "warmup" to get the blood flowing and to perhaps stretch out my body a bit, flex the hips etc... I quite often do the squats without any weight, so sometimes I'm just doing bodyweight squats, and just 5 of them, to kind of stretch out my body a bit before starting the swings.

Having said that, Pavel has good things to say about the goblet squat and about doing curls at the bottom of it in the book. I quite often do a few curls in a squatting position with the kettlebell along with the squats. However, I don't consider this to be really part of the training or anything I'm really developing seriously. This is just "warmup" stuff really. I do the hip bridge stretch too when on the ground before or in between TGUs.

In any case, to be sure goblet squats, curls etc are good things to do, but are not the target moves for S&S.
 
Why not combining Squats with S&S? I would do the former on every other dayb3 times a week, for instance. Or maybe practice Pistols in NW style?
 
I really enjoy doing the weighted goblet squats during my warmup. I also use it as a benchmark for testing my progress. When I first started I couldn't goblet with a 24kg with good form, and now I use a 24kg all the time. For me, a weighted squat forces me to tense and "reminds" me of the sensation of a hardstyle movement, and therefore prepares me for the practice session.
 
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Congratulations on your progress. I like doing front squats in the rack vs. goblet. Hits the obliques too. You've done some adjustments and it seems to be working for you. Keep pressing, you're doing more reps because you've found your pressing groove and have more confidence. Nice work.
 
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