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Kettlebell S&S with deadlifts

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TimmyCK

Level 4 Valued Member
Hey folks! Had a question about temporarily replacing swings with kettlebell deadlifts in S&S. I had back pain to varying degrees for over a year which I'm currently in physio for - I was working on adding in the 24kg but had to take a break for physio since I'm very back and quad dominant. He's now given me the green light for TGUs, but in swings I get a bit too much extension from the back so I think I'm just going to take a month or so to work on KB deadlifts both for patterning and to keep my posterior chain worked.

My question is, what's the best way to work on deadlifts for my particular goals (as in, sets and reps)? Reading through older posts it seems some people think sets of 5-10 are best, others prefer sets of 20. A friend of mine also suggested going for time under tension and doing deadlifts for, say, 3 minutes as an option. And what should the total volume be per session? Would love to hear your thoughts.

(I'm currently doing "S&S" (I know it's not really without the swings) 3 times a week on my physio's recommendation since there are other glute exercises he wants me to do every second day).

Thanks in advance!
 

oab

Level 5 Valued Member
Best to get your physios consent on adding in swing substitute deadlifts. as he has said glute exercises every second day and you don't want to overload your posterior chain. On rep ranges and volume for deadlifts, go for the rep ranges and volume that allow perfect form, do not cause pain or interfere with the physio's program. If physio Oks the deadlifts then start light with sets of 5 and excellent form, only 1-2 sets for a few sessions with emphasis on perfect form. If that goes OK then gradually build up to sets of 5 till you reach 6-8 before adding any weight. The light weight means a weight that is very easy. You already know how injuries get in the way of training from your back pain and so important to avoid a repeat. Also very important to learn correct hinge form. This is your priority but remember that form will degrade if you add to many reps or weight too soon. Also it would be a good idea to get feedback on your form from a SF coach.
 

TimmyCK

Level 4 Valued Member
Best to get your physios consent on adding in swing substitute deadlifts. as he has said glute exercises every second day and you don't want to overload your posterior chain. On rep ranges and volume for deadlifts, go for the rep ranges and volume that allow perfect form, do not cause pain or interfere with the physio's program. If physio Oks the deadlifts then start light with sets of 5 and excellent form, only 1-2 sets for a few sessions with emphasis on perfect form. If that goes OK then gradually build up to sets of 5 till you reach 6-8 before adding any weight. The light weight means a weight that is very easy. You already know how injuries get in the way of training from your back pain and so important to avoid a repeat. Also very important to learn correct hinge form. This is your priority but remember that form will degrade if you add to many reps or weight too soon. Also it would be a good idea to get feedback on your form from a SF coach.
I do indeed have physio's consent to add deadlifts - he actually ok'd swings but when I suggested doing deadlifts to work on patterning he thought it was a good idea. My hinge is pretty good (I think), the main issue I have is relying too much on lumbar extension during the swing (seems to be fine with the DL though). Thanks for the suggestions!
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
So I know you're looking to scratch the itch but also stay safe...

Is the swing the only ballistic movement that your body rejects??
 

oab

Level 5 Valued Member
Hi TimmyCK
You might also want to have a look at Dan John's " Bulgarian Goat Belly Swing." which are another way of grooving the hinge pattern by sort of holding a kettlebell against your abdomen. If you search it up using the search engine of your choice then you will see what is involved.
 

James Sullivan

Level 6 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Hey folks! Had a question about temporarily replacing swings with kettlebell deadlifts in S&S. I had back pain to varying degrees for over a year which I'm currently in physio for - I was working on adding in the 24kg but had to take a break for physio since I'm very back and quad dominant. He's now given me the green light for TGUs, but in swings I get a bit too much extension from the back so I think I'm just going to take a month or so to work on KB deadlifts both for patterning and to keep my posterior chain worked.

My question is, what's the best way to work on deadlifts for my particular goals (as in, sets and reps)? Reading through older posts it seems some people think sets of 5-10 are best, others prefer sets of 20. A friend of mine also suggested going for time under tension and doing deadlifts for, say, 3 minutes as an option. And what should the total volume be per session? Would love to hear your thoughts.

(I'm currently doing "S&S" (I know it's not really without the swings) 3 times a week on my physio's recommendation since there are other glute exercises he wants me to do every second day).

Thanks in advance!
There are some very nice Strong Endurance templates which are compatible with what you would call an "explosive deadlift and drop" which target "fast and intermediate fibers" so GPP move better/ feel better similar to S&S. I'm thinking #4 and #5. I'd be happy to help. Shoot a DM if you'd like to discuss.
 

TimmyCK

Level 4 Valued Member
So I know you're looking to scratch the itch but also stay safe...

Is the swing the only ballistic movement that your body rejects??
I haven't tried any others in quite a while. I was doing ROP in which I was using the 24kg (as I'm sure you remember!) but switched to S&S because I was having problems with the cleans and snatches - I had a tendency to twist a bit and I'm sure I was over-recruiting my back as I am with swings. I'd often feel my back making some noise after my ROP sessions. As some folks on the forum pointed out on my post about the snatch test, my hips just aren't powerful enough so I decided to go back to S&S before trying fancier stuff. I thought the swing was basic enough but I think I may have to go back to even more basic basics! The deadlifts, in the one session I used them in, felt pretty good.

What do you think Mark? Is this a wise approach?
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I haven't tried any others in quite a while. I was doing ROP in which I was using the 24kg (as I'm sure you remember!) but switched to S&S because I was having problems with the cleans and snatches - I had a tendency to twist a bit and I'm sure I was over-recruiting my back as I am with swings. I'd often feel my back making some noise after my ROP sessions. As some folks on the forum pointed out on my post about the snatch test, my hips just aren't powerful enough so I decided to go back to S&S before trying fancier stuff. I thought the swing was basic enough but I think I may have to go back to even more basic basics! The deadlifts, in the one session I used them in, felt pretty good.

What do you think Mark? Is this a wise approach?
What do you do for your movement prep??
 

TimmyCK

Level 4 Valued Member
What do you do for your movement prep??
I do the specific warm-up physio gave me, which is stretching out my hip flexors, a few exercises involving the drawing-in maneuver to activate my TVA, glute bridges, hip internal rotation with a band and Y-raises on a ball for my lower traps. It's worked wonders for my back so far!
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
I do the specific warm-up physio gave me, which is stretching out my hip flexors, a few exercises involving the drawing-in maneuver to activate my TVA, glute bridges, hip internal rotation with a band and Y-raises on a ball for my lower traps. It's worked wonders for my back so far!
Keep those as that's what your healthcare provider has recommended.. I would add a few things that you can do as active rest between sets though
 

Ian V

Level 6 Valued Member
Sounds good! OS resets perhaps?
Yes - I recently suffered with my back a bit and rocking was an absolute god send. Also I'm a big fan of the Bulgarian Goat Bag Swing as mentioned by @oab - these got me through a slight problem earlier this year.
 
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