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Kettlebell S&S with snatches

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Simply strong

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Would replacing the swings with snatches in S&S be too much overhead work?
Is there a particular reason S&S uses swings not snatches?
 
I haven't replaced swings by snatches completely, I only replaced 1 day a week. I dont do TGU that day.

I did this because I want to learn to snatch and also to prepare to SFG in November. So far so good.

I do about 20 sets of 5 reps with good rest between sets.

Edit: There are many programs that use snatch as the ballistic instead of swings. Royal S&S, A+A protocols to mention two. You could look at those of you want.
 
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Options (IMHO)
1 spend one day of the week doing snatches
2 add 10+10 snatches for the final set of swings
3 my personal favorite, easy strength snatches (2,4,6)x1-2 right before swings to build strength and technique
4 if your experienced with the snatch A+A. I don't have personal experience, but enough smarter/stronger people then myself swear by em.
I used a combination options 1-3 for my last TSC, it was enough so that even with my limited experience with snatching at the time I pulled off 92reps (I have since gotten a 100 but not when it counted for anything other then personal vindication)
 
I have been doing A+A snatches for a few months now, mainly with the 32, so a bit similar to S&S. I also wanted to train the getup at the same time. If you focus on improving the snatch (more repeats per set, heavier weight, more sets, reducing rest time, of course all within the parameters of A+A), your shoulders will be tired when you are done with the snatches. This does not happen with swings. I had not much problems at the start when I used the 24 for a few weeks, but as soon as I introduced the 32, the getups became much harder to do. I still do a few getups because I like doing them, but they have not improved much. It's OK for me as my focus now is the snatch, but this would not be S&S.
 
In my opinion snatch is superior to swings. But it is also more taxing on shoulders and hands. Large volume of snatches shouldn't be a problem - gireviks do lots of them - but watch the volume. It is easy to do too much at the beginning.
 
@Simply strong - Cut the reps from 10 to 3-5, starting at 3 and slowly working to 5 would work. 100 daily snatches would be tough, last year I was running A&A snatches starting at 5 reps EMM for 12 minutes and I added 2 minutes every other day with the 24kg. After about 6 weeks I was doing 20-30 minutes with the 32kg for 3 reps easily. Daily snatches with 3-5 reps for 10 minutes should be just fine. Start with a low weight, a few kg's less than normal and slowly work up. Best of luck with your training.
 
Plus you get allot of the benefit with less risk.

100 daily snatches might just hurt your elbow.

Umm...what risk? Why would snatches hurt your elbow?

Snatches are definitely harder on the hands and grip, and more fatiguing to the shoulders just because you are supporting the bell overhead in the lockout, but they should not be risky or hurt the elbows.

Of course, this presupposes good form and brings up the most obvious (IMO) reason S&S uses swings instead of snatches: the snatch has a greater learning curve. The swing is a more accessible drill to most people, especially beginners, and doesn't overlap with an overhead lift like the get up.

On the elbow issue, one thing that can cause elbow inflammation or injury is when your partially tense bent arm is pulled straight by the force of the bell. So there IS a risk of this in the snatch IF your form is not good. But to me that's more a form point to pay attention to and not an inherent risk in the exercise.

The same issue can affect swings. If you allow your arm to bend at the top of a swing (as many people do), you have to be careful to make sure it straightens out again while the bell is still floating and there is no tension on the arm. This is the main reason I discourage people from bending the arm at the top of the swing. It's not harmful in itself, but it's an extra and unnecessary moving part to have to get right. In the snatch it's an integral and necessary moving part to have to get right, but every drill has technique points you have to get right to maximize safety.
 
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Why drop a bible text about tissue and form ? It is a cliche.
[Edit: Apparently the above quote was edited out of the previous post while I was responding]

No, a statement based on my experience.

I was admittedly a little disingenuous in the questions at the beginning of my post. But I elaborated on the specific form point that in my experience is most relevant to avoiding elbow problems and how it applies to both swings and snatches. I've done tens of thousands of both swing and snatch reps over close to two decades (probably several hundred thousand ballistic reps in total) and found that I can do a very high volume of snatches without any elbow problems, IF I pay attention to the form point I mentioned above. There was a learning curve to refining this aspect of my form, but once I got it dialed in it hasn't been a problem. My point is that I don't think of this aspect of the snatch as being "risky," and that every exercise has important points of safe form.

I am the last person to mindlessly state that good form eliminates all risk of injury or parrot SF orthodoxy. All training imposes stress on the body, and that stress often does lead to injury despite people's best attention to good form and prudent programming, and I absolutely DON'T buy into the blame-the-victim idea that injuries are necessarily the trainee's fault. Even if an injury could have been avoided in a given case, it is almost never useful or productive to talk or think in terms of "fault" or "blame."

There are some drills, such as pullups, that I have found I have to be extremely careful about in terms of load and progression, regardless of form, in order to avoid problems (elbow problems specifically in the case of pullups). So if I were commenting on pullups, I would be more circumspect based on my experience.
 
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[Edit: Apparently the above quote was edited out of the previous post while I was responding]

No, a statement based on my experience.

I was admittedly a little disingenuous in the questions at the beginning of my post. But I elaborated on the specific form point that in my experience is most relevant to avoiding elbow problems and how it applies to both swings and snatches. I've done tens of thousands of both swing and snatch reps over close to two decades (probably several hundred thousand ballistic reps in total) and found that I can do a very high volume of snatches without any elbow problems, IF I pay attention to the form point I mentioned above. There was a learning curve to refining this aspect of my form, but once I got it dialed in it hasn't been a problem. My point is that I don't think of this aspect of the snatch as being "risky," and that every exercise has important points of safe form.

I am the last person to mindlessly state that good form eliminates all risk of injury or parrot SF orthodoxy. All training imposes stress on the body, and that stress often does lead to injury despite people's best attention to good form and prudent programming, and I absolutely DON'T buy into the blame-the-victim idea that injuries are necessarily the trainee's fault. Even if an injury could have been avoided in a given case, it is almost never useful or productive to talk or think in terms of "fault" or "blame."

There are some drills, such as pullups, that I have found I have to be extremely careful about in terms of load and progression, regardless of form, in order to avoid problems (elbow problems specifically in the case of pullups). So if I were commenting on pullups, I would be more circumspect based on my experience.

yes i thought it was rude of me. so i edited it.
 
I found high volume snatches can hurt the shoulder and lower back rather than elbow.

For someone interested in doing long sets of snatches I would recommend learning girevoy sport snatch technique. While not a rocket science it will help avoiding trauma.
 
At the risk of sounding glib... a 100% foolproof way of avoiding training injuries is to not train.

All training carries with it some risk of injury. It is incumbent upon the practioner to intelligently assess that risk, and either accept it, or employ preventive mitigating strategies, or to not accept that risk, and move on to something else.
 
The thing is that the getup is good for more things than shoulder stability, but if you snatch a lot, shoulder stability is definitively the limiting factor in getups.

S&S is a ballistic + a grind, but the getup may be the wrong grind to match with snatches. Maybe double front squats would be good. I still do getups, but in very moderate amounts after my A+A snatches (80 to 130 reps these days, in sets of 5 with a 32). Strangely, some days the 40 is fine for a few getups, others my shoulders cannot handle more than one or two with the 32, even with the same number of snatches done before.
 
To answer your original question, it isn't necessarily too much overhead work. As others have mentioned, be careful with increasing snatch volume and load.

As for only doing snatches, Pavel quoted Bob Hoffman that quick lifts and grinds are both necessary to build a Superman. There are a lot of combinations that can work: swings and getups (ETK PM, S&S), snatches and bent press (RKC PM, Royal S&S), swings and snatches and clean and presses (Rite of Passage). Of course, you can get some of the results doing only some of the work.
 
Royal Simple & Sinister (RSAS, snatch and bent press) features:

- sets of 4 or 6 reps with medium-heavy weight
- waving the volume every session
- increasing the reps, then weight, than again reps
- deload after each cycle

If your snatch technique is good, all runs nice and smooth. No problems with elbows (note: I hurt my elbow rolling on the hard surface 2 years ago - and it was already busted up from years of combat training).
 
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