all posts post new thread

Kettlebell S&S working weights and progressing

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
A few things you can add as you progress and aspire to progress..

1. Add more power to your swings.. work up to comfortably swinging to shoulder height for all sets still with talk test governed rest periods.

2. Do the getups especially the segment up to standing extra slow (each phase takes about 3-5 seconds) these will get you stronger and better conditioned
Thanks Mark, much appreciated.
 
Last edited:
A few things you can add as you progress and aspire to progress..

1. Add more power to your swings.. work up to comfortably swinging to shoulder height for all sets still with talk test governed rest periods.

2. Do the getups especially the segment up to standing extra slow (each phase takes about 3-5 seconds) these will get you stronger and better conditioned

Thanks Mark.

I focussed on your 1st point today, I indeed may have been slacking on this one since stepping up to the 32kg and settling for waist height swings at points. Today I focussed on generating enough force to get the float at chest heigh for every swing.

I carried on with partial TGUs with the 32, as per @Molson's suggestion and was able to get comfortably (though I wouldn't say easily) through the roll up to the elbow then up to seated and posting on the straight arm. I'm happy with this progress.
Strength certainly does seem to be a skill as much as it is getting physically stronger. Or at least as much mental as physical in parts. I didn't feel like I could do that several days ago and certainly not a week or so ago. I was couldn't even press the bell while laying on my back just a couple of weeks ago.
 
Thanks Mark.

I focussed on your 1st point today, I indeed may have been slacking on this one since stepping up to the 32kg and settling for waist height swings at points. Today I focussed on generating enough force to get the float at chest heigh for every swing.

I carried on with partial TGUs with the 32, as per @Molson's suggestion and was able to get comfortably (though I wouldn't say easily) through the roll up to the elbow then up to seated and posting on the straight arm. I'm happy with this progress.
Strength certainly does seem to be a skill as much as it is getting physically stronger. Or at least as much mental as physical in parts. I didn't feel like I could do that several days ago and certainly not a week or so ago. I was couldn't even press the bell while laying on my back just a couple of weeks ago.
“Strength is a skill” really hits the nail on the head. I saw a video with Christian Thibaudeau and he was saying that he was doing snatch grip high pulls at 110kg and I guess who ever employs him said “it’d be great to get a video of you doing those at 180kg” and he was like WTH But trained for 3 weeks only doing the SGHP and nailed the 180kg. He made a specific point of saying that nothing physically changed about him. He didn’t add muscle, change diet, yada yada yada. He just greased that neurological groove.
I find on days when I’m firing on all 4 cylinders that I can TGU the 32 On each side and feel relatively good about it.
Here’s another boring anecdote. When I lifted in my 20’s I was 155lbs and my max bench was stuck at 185x2 forever. I just could not get past that sticking point. Could do that for 2 but couldn’t press 190x1. One night when I was benching with my buddy he told me if I do A, B, C and D I could hit 195 For a single. Some stretches or foot position, something like that. Anyhow, he put 205 on the bar and spotted me and thinking I did the magical top secret foot position or whatever I smoothly pressed 205. I’ll never forget when he looked at me and was like “oops. I guess I “accidentally” put 205 on there. Good job”. Goes to show how much of a mental game things can be sometimes. (Slightly different than the neurological adaptation part but still interesting)
 
Hello,
I am doing get ups with 32 kg but still working with swings 6 sets with 28kg and 4 with 32 kg. Am i understanding that I should keep 32 kg get ups until I hit timeless with swings? ive been adding 36 kg get ups. Am doing 4 sets with 36 kg. Should I back down and only do 32 kg.
Any books or articles anyon can recommend to increase my endurance after I hit timeless s&s?
 
Hello,
I am doing get ups with 32 kg but still working with swings 6 sets with 28kg and 4 with 32 kg. Am i understanding that I should keep 32 kg get ups until I hit timeless with swings? ive been adding 36 kg get ups. Am doing 4 sets with 36 kg. Should I back down and only do 32 kg.
Any books or articles anyon can recommend to increase my endurance after I hit timeless s&s?
You can either progress both moves individually or wait til one catches up with the other..

When you hit timeless simple, one next step is to work on doing swings on the minute..
 
Hello,
I am doing get ups with 32 kg but still working with swings 6 sets with 28kg and 4 with 32 kg. Am i understanding that I should keep 32 kg get ups until I hit timeless with swings? ive been adding 36 kg get ups. Am doing 4 sets with 36 kg. Should I back down and only do 32 kg.
Any books or articles anyon can recommend to increase my endurance after I hit timeless s&s?
Welcome!
It is your choice if you want to progress faster with TGUs than with Swings. Pavel states in S&S that different rates of progression are fine.

For endurance you could try A+A work. For example with Swings or Snatches.

Powerful sets of 5, rest, repeat. Make each day a little different (in length or bell selection). Let progress happen naturally.
 
Hello,
I am doing get ups with 32 kg but still working with swings 6 sets with 28kg and 4 with 32 kg. Am i understanding that I should keep 32 kg get ups until I hit timeless with swings? ive been adding 36 kg get ups. Am doing 4 sets with 36 kg. Should I back down and only do 32 kg.
Any books or articles anyon can recommend to increase my endurance after I hit timeless s&s?
Congrats to you for substantial gains in strength first of all!

Definitely de-couple your progress in swing and getup: don't let the tortoise slow down the hare; or even worse, hare rush tortoise...

"What Would @Pavel Macek Do?" - his training log, "Repeat Until Strong" is a goldmine well worth reading and worthy of re-reading:

Also, highly recommend his article:
 
Hello,
I am doing get ups with 32 kg but still working with swings 6 sets with 28kg and 4 with 32 kg. Am i understanding that I should keep 32 kg get ups until I hit timeless with swings? ive been adding 36 kg get ups. Am doing 4 sets with 36 kg. Should I back down and only do 32 kg.
Any books or articles anyon can recommend to increase my endurance after I hit timeless s&s?

If Sinister is your immediate goal and you feel you've totally owned the 32K, then I would continue progressing the TGU if I were you... chances are you won't attempt this particular long-term high summit again. Unlike the TGU, the hinge pattern can be maintained and progressed in multiple ways in the future, even if you finish or stop S&S; A+A, Q&D, doubles work, Olympic lifts, sandbags, ...etc.

Saying that, consider if you have some obvious gaps (strength, mobility, endurance, power) and whether you should stop at Simple and pick another program to fill such gaps. There's certainly no shame in that... Timeless Simple is quite an achievement.
 
A post I made earlier today got me thinking about the perpetual discussion on weights and progressions to use in S&S. Everyone’s brain works differently and takes in information differently, so I can understand that everyone may have different interpretations of how the program is laid out in Pavel’s books. The following is based on my opinions, interpretations and my personal experiences. If you are just starting out and this helps clarify things, then great. If you totally disagree, and have had totally different experiences than me, then that’s OK too. Feel free to take potshots.

First, for this discussion, I need to classify and categorize “weight”, based on the combination of weights that make up the daily minimum effective dose of 100 swings and 10 get ups done in the context of an S&S session. For instance, a particular person’s “everyday” weight might be 32kg across the board, another person’s “everyday” weight may be 24,28,24,28,24 in swings, but only 24kg on all getups, and so on.

Level-5: Max weight/s
This is your 1 or 2 rep max. Best used for padding your ego and making instagram posts. You can't do an entire session (100 swings & 10 getups) with it. Approach with caution.

Level-4: Challenge weight/s
This is the weight/s where you are capable of doing a whole session (100 swings & 10 getups), but you can't do it all the time. You will need some recovery time. You might be able to do 3 sessions a week. This is where a lot of people want to operate, but they may quickly stall out and then claim its due to boredom or burnout. (Can be used in situations for specialized programming, like Sinister)

Level-3: Everyday weight/s
This is the weight/s where you can do your full session (untimed, talk test, etc), and do it darn near every day. Once your weekly volume is established, you don't get sore or too wore out. If you would happen to throw the talk-test out, and with full exertion, you may or may not be able to hit time standards. If you do, it’s gonna suck bad.

Level-2: Test (or deload) weight/s
This is the weight/s where you can do a successful timed test session at about 85-95% RPE. Not fun but doable every 1-4 weeks. Also, a good weight for untimed, deloading sessions.

Level-1: Owned weight/s
You could hit timed test any or every day of the week if you wanted. Timed test only takes about 70-85% RPE. Timed session of this is great for active recovery.

Weight selection: Again, This is my context of near daily practicing S&S to hit simple or beyond for GPP. (not for specialty Sinister goal.) The S&S program was to be intended as an “easy strength” type program to be used near daily. When using the correct weight levels (I'm suggesting level-3, everyday weight), the daily volume IS NOT VERY HIGH. If you are struggling with getting your daily volume in, you are going too heavy. If you only have 3 days available to exercise, that’s one thing, but if you have more days available but you can only manage 2 or 3 days because you need the recovery, then back off the weight. In the beginning, it will be easier to establish higher frequency (more days a week) when the weight is light. It may suck for a week, but just like Pavel compares it to boot camp, your body will adapt and get used to it. If you’ve already been at the program for a while and you want to increase frequency, then either do it slowly, or back down the weight until your frequency is established.

Deloading/off days: Pavel also puts a lot of emphasis on getting in your daily volume (because it’s not a lot), and he recommends backing down the weight if you’re dragging your tail. It’s better to have a light day, than a day off. But, if you find yourself constantly deloading or taking days off because you’re not feeling it, then you may be trying to go too heavy for your regular sessions.

V1.0 methodology: In V1.0, the program revolved exclusively around level-3 (everyday) weights. You would build up your volume by practicing most days and use the talk test to dictate rest times. Progress was indicated by the quicker recovery between sets of your daily, talk-test driven sessions. Once every week or two, you would push your session and compress your rests to eventually hit test times. When you hit the test times, you started to feed in sets of a heavier bell in your regular sessions. So, in essence, you stuck with your level-3 (everyday) weight until you turned it into your level-2 weight before you started moving up. The goal of the V1.0 program was to progress until you at least made the “simple” weight/s your level-2 weight/s. You would be on the borderline of owning the simple bell.

V2.0 methodology: I can only speculate what drove the changes for V2.0, but I believe one of the reasons was meant to make you stronger in a less strenuous manner. You still focus on performing your level-3 (everyday) weight almost daily using the talk test. To progress, you would use step progressions to slowly inch up your level 3 weights. When you progressed to the “simple” sized bell as your level-3 weight, you can start using “do but die” test sessions using your level-1 weight once a week. So, then the goal of V2.0 would be to progress your level-3 weight until you get your level-1 test weight to the simple level. At that point, you would fully own the simple size bell. So naturally, achieving the simple timed standard using V2.0 methodology can yield a higher level-3 weight/strength than using V1.0

Differences: This comparisons between V1.0 & V2.0 are generalizations and do not detail the intricacies of all the changes between the different versions. Each version has its own advantages. V1.0 is the most minimalistic in terms of instructions and number of bells needed to hit a specific timed target. V2.0 methodology has more layers of instruction, and more bells will be needed to practice regularly between the level-1(fast) and level-3(working) sessions. For instance, if simple time standard is goal, you will need heavier bells than simple to achieve the standard.

The pursuit of "timeless": It seems like many people are doing the S&S V2.0 to chase some “timeless” weight exclusively, and in doing so, miss out on many benefits of the program including total strength and hitting all 3 energy systems of the body. For instance, if you’re a guy with the main goal to hit “timeless” with 40kg, (this may become your level-4 weight) you aren’t guaranteed to ever hitting the simple goal (timed w/32kg) and it would be a daunting task to try if you have little or no glycolytic conditioning or good recovery breathing. You might be kind of like the power lifter who gets winded from going up a couple flight of stairs (well probably not, but you get the picture). To keep the program balanced and in the realm of GPP, I would suggest taking up your weekly “die but do” sessions as soon as you can, while the weights are light. They don’t get any easier. For all you frog leg connoisseurs, S&S testing is like boiling a bullfrog. You can’t throw a bullfrog in boiling water because it will jump back out. You have to put him in some luke warm water and then heat it up slow and steady. Anyway, now I’m hungry, and it’s about lunch time, so I’ll end this posting here.

These are my opinions. If I botched something or totally misrepresented something feel free to comment. Most of you aren’t shy about it. I am also not the most eloquent person when it comes to writing, so feel free to jump in to help clarify.

Hope this helps, if not, please disregard

Once past the initial learning phase (of course we are always learning), I also progressed faster on my swings using HLM wavy programming.
 
Great post @Papa Georgio. And very eloquently put.

My musing on this subject is, if you split s&s into a swings day followed by a tgu day, everything else being equal, would you make faster or slower progress? So, for the thought experiment, on one day you did 200 swings and on following day you did 20 TGU s. 6 days a week. Compare that to 6 days of standard s&s. Any difference?
 
Great post @Papa Georgio. And very eloquently put.

My musing on this subject is, if you split s&s into a swings day followed by a tgu day, everything else being equal, would you make faster or slower progress? So, for the thought experiment, on one day you did 200 swings and on following day you did 20 TGU s. 6 days a week. Compare that to 6 days of standard s&s. Any difference?

You can do that although it isn't s and s by the book anymore..

I honestly believe you don't need much thinking to do, just follow the book as written to unlock timeless simple and maybe do a peaking approach for some to unlock the timed simple standard
 
Great post @Papa Georgio. And very eloquently put.

My musing on this subject is, if you split s&s into a swings day followed by a tgu day, everything else being equal, would you make faster or slower progress? So, for the thought experiment, on one day you did 200 swings and on following day you did 20 TGU s. 6 days a week. Compare that to 6 days of standard s&s. Any difference?

Ballistic days and grind days? The closest I've seen to this are ROTK's ballistic blocks and grind blocks, but they were two weeks for each block.

I can imagine your idea working beyond Simple (though without doubling the reps), when we're supposed to practice 3-4 days a week. Still, I would add light ballistics (mace swings?) to the getup days and light grinds (presses?) to the swing days.
 
You can do that although it isn't s and s by the book anymore..

I honestly believe you don't need much thinking to do, just follow the book as written to unlock timeless simple and maybe do a peaking approach for some to unlock the timed simple standard
I wouldn't dream of it, I was just doing an idle thought experiment over my coffee ?
 
My musing on this subject is, if you split s&s into a swings day followed by a tgu day, everything else being equal, would you make faster or slower progress? So, for the thought experiment, on one day you did 200 swings and on following day you did 20 TGU s. 6 days a week. Compare that to 6 days of standard s&s. Any difference?

Great question! And I don't think I've ever seen it asked before, even after 8 years of S&S discussions on this forum!

My guess would be that the vast majority of the time, the standard daily formulation is better. But for an intermediate trainee who is adapted to the overall volume of training needs a jolt or novel stimulus, it might be an effective experiment to try for 2-3 weeks.
 
It’s good to do the 2Hs from time to time to let your grip rest and remind the hips of full power production. I would risk saying that it’s not pure S&S if you do 2Hs every other session and aim to progress it as much as possible. From my own experiences. If I focus on progressing 2Hs too much, it takes away from progressing 1Hs, which is not the goal of the program. I’d suggest to Keep the goal the goal. And keep in mind that, due to kettlebells unique center of gravity, you can really get a lot out of just swinging the 1Hs lighter/medium bell just more powerfully, even over speed eccentrics, to prep your grip and hips for the heavier bell 1Hs.

In the book Pavel calls for 1/3 of training days to be done two handed.
 
Here is my understanding of the prescribed program ( see attachment) and how I am following it. Work up to being able to do 35 lb / 16 k in the time box, 6 - 7 minutes for warm-up, then the 16 for swings and getups. Might start with getting 20 lb into the time box and starting to own the routine while following the 20% step up path to get to 35lb. There is a big form bonus coming from 20 to 35 so it can be a relatively quick transition vs the ones that follow.

Once you can do 35 /16 then start month zero doing it 5-6 times per week. Week 1 it should be hard to get it into the box every day. Might be behind the clock some days. Week 2 it should be hard but you're in the box solidly every day. Week 3 it should drop to medium hard to get it into the box. Week 4 to medium. Then it's time for transition Month 1. Add in the heavier bell for the second set of swings and getups. Might push you back out of the box again. That extra kick in the second set and no break when going back to the bell that is at medium makes that lighter bell feel a lot heavier. : ) The step up cycle is 4 - 12 weeks. So some steps might take a bit longer than others. If you go to step up and it makes it so you need to stop and take a break, then you aren't ready to step up yet. Once you get settled into the monthly rhythm it's very nice and you are never working at your max. You're working in the hard to easy zone. As the weight of the bell feels lighter you throw it harder, so your total exertion for each day is very even.

Every workout after the first each month gets a little easier than the last as you move into owning the bell. During the transition you continue to use the bell that was medium at the start and it moves into easy, where you solidify the gains. You are going from "own" to "dominate". At the same time the heavy bell is becoming the new medium and one that you "own".

One of the things I like best about the program is it's the same every day for a month. I do a ten minute stretch and warm-up before the weighted warm up. So 33 minutes start to finish every day for a full body workout, the end of which, once being done with a bell in the med to light range, is weighted yoga. It's a great stretch that makes you stronger and limber.

I know some follow a more aggressive climb up through the weights. Personally I'm sold on the slow, steady, daily climb. I plan on getting to Simple and then just staying with that 70 / 32 forever to remain strong and fit in the simplest, most time efficient way possible. The intensity can be increased by moving beyond the reps in the baseline for the standard. Work it up to 14 swings and 20 - 40 getups. Add some clean and presses in at the beginning of each getup minute, etc. Cut it back to three days and spend the other three working on push-ups, pull-ups, hand-stand pushups, and muscle ups. Perhaps after parking at Simple for a while the urge to make a run at Sinister will strike. For now I am really enjoying the monthly flow. It's such a great daily full body energizer.

Whether you take the slow steady path or a faster one, achieving the standards is really something to be proud of accomplishing. Congrats to those who have made it and good luck to those who are trying to get there! Happy swinging!
 

Attachments

  • Simple and Sinister Entire Program Swings.jpg
    Simple and Sinister Entire Program Swings.jpg
    134.3 KB · Views: 11
Last edited:
Great question! And I don't think I've ever seen it asked before, even after 8 years of S&S discussions on this forum!

My guess would be that the vast majority of the time, the standard daily formulation is better. But for an intermediate trainee who is adapted to the overall volume of training needs a jolt or novel stimulus, it might be an effective experiment to try for 2-3 weeks.
I'd say you were right, @Anna C
An analogy might be getting a sun tan (back when we did that). Eveyone has an individual optimum amount of sun they can take in a day. Too little and they are leaving gains on the table, too much and they get burned and have to wear a t-shirt next day. Quality of program is analogous to sun tan lotion: tweaking how much UVA vs UVB gets through to your skin.?
 
I find that swings @ 28kg and getups @ 32kg are perfect for me. They are heavy enough to be effective but not so heavy as to strain anything or beat me up. I guess that's not the ideal of 32kg for both exercises, but I don't care. I'm already ridiculously strong compared with before S&S, and I do other things too.
 
This is a good reminder, thanks!

I read the original S&S a few years ago now, starting and restarting the program several times since then. Each time only getting as far as maintaning a solid test standard with 24kg (45yo male at a bodyweight between 70kg & 73kg at the time), before having to take a break for training due to unrelated injury, illness or surgeries. In only one previous attempt of at the program did I get to the point of starting to try to work in the 32kg for 1 handed swings.

April this year I decided to get back into it, along the lines of the MAF method (ie. trying to keep my HR below 145 bpm - tracked in the attached) and have been practicing consistently since, or so I thought. Reading your post has highlighted, however, that I haven't been training as consitently as I should have due to taking days off here and there to recover. I realise now I've probably been pushing it a little harder than I should have and missing practice instead of just deloading back to a lighter KB.

I am struggling with working the 32kg into the TGU. The 24kg is more than comfortable even doing 5 reps non-stop on each side before switching sides, but I have nothing in between. I've added 10 second pauses at each transition, and starting to add in a press there too, which I found useful to transition up from the 16kg to 24kg.
Okay, so I don't represent anyone but myself here, haha, but in my own biased opinion, if you are feeling you are getting a great workout with the 24kg and you're having trouble moving heavier, then maybe the 24kg is the best place for you, at least for a while? Maybe a 28kg is the next step and not a 32kg? I do agree that the 32kg is the ideal, but even if you're using less weight, you're still on the programme, and no one is lighting a fire under you to push yourself too hard to move up in weight. You'll find your sweet spot over time. The 24kg is way too light for me, the 48kg is too heavy.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom