james_1127
Level 6 Valued Member
How I would set it up personally is
3x a week DL + IC
1 extra day to add in swings S&S style
1 day of light mobility/recovery day
Kettlebell Scheduling additional hypertrophy sessions amidst all-around training.
- Thread starter Adachi
- Start date
3x a week DL + IC
1 extra day to add in swings S&S style
1 day of light mobility/recovery day
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Can we just take a minute to appreciate that this guy was a body builder with the last name of "Massaroni?"
Keith B
Level 2 Valued Member
Awesome. Thanks for that.
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Happy birthday for Sunday.
My missus bought me a barbell last year. Since then I've been spoilt for choice and have done a lot more Clean & Press and Clean and Front Squatting than deadlifting.
But just bought the Knock 'em Dead resource and looking to start deadlifting on my next cycle.
Keith B
Level 2 Valued Member
Thanks for that. Nice one. It will probably cos me programming problems too later on but IC and the DLs will do for now due to the hours on the construction site just now. Not long purchased IC so want to give it a go plus I'm enjoying it.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I will say, given my equipment constraints, this one seems to be the most easily employed tactic so far.
Edit: I do have built strong minimalist. It is very good looking. But I am low in equipment selection and the number of exercises I'm well trained in . It will be put to use in a future cycle.
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Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
after an extended family trip a couple extra days off and watching this video ...
...
I may be revising the schedule. today was another (15/4) 15 reps per 4 sets day, and it almost felt easy.
maybe next week will be like this...
...
I may be revising the schedule. today was another (15/4) 15 reps per 4 sets day, and it almost felt easy.
maybe next week will be like this...
Iron Cardio (IC) + Hypertrophy (H)
| M | T | W | T | F |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| H Light | IC | IC | H Heavy | IC |
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Late to the party but a lot of good ideas here..
The 1-2-3 ladder for IC would definitely fit in the mix here
The 1-2-3 ladder for IC would definitely fit in the mix here
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
Soreness is approaching zero today. I take this as a very good sign.
Revised Calendar to try to push some limits this cycle.
Using a nominal 100 Reps / Session cap.
Looking to wrap with a nice tall set of 30 to really pump things up. Mostly, just to see if I can.
Revised Calendar to try to push some limits this cycle.
Using a nominal 100 Reps / Session cap.
Iron Cardio (IC) + Hypertrophy (H)
M | T | W | T | F |
|---|---|---|---|---|
15/5 | IC | |||
15/3 | IC | IC | 15/6 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 20/3 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 20/4 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 20/5 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 25/2 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 25/3 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 25/4 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 30/2 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 30/3 | IC |
The schedule is subject to change
* = skipped/holiday
* = skipped/holiday
Looking to wrap with a nice tall set of 30 to really pump things up. Mostly, just to see if I can.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
It comes to my attention that it comes to Google's attention that I have been repeatedly typing the word Hypertrophy on the internet.
In light of this, Google has seen fit to send me many recommendations which are apparently excerpts from Mike Mentzer; who I'd never heard speak, previously.
The above video has shifted and adjusted the way I consider my practice, and I am considering reducing volume going forward, for now.(as was mentioned earlier, by others)
32kg Swings & Explosive pushups today.
completed 15/5.
Soreness is fairly low.
I take this as a very good sign.
Using a nominal 100 Reps / Session cap.
Looking to wrap with a nice tall set of 30 to really pump things up. Mostly, just to see if I can.
In light of this, Google has seen fit to send me many recommendations which are apparently excerpts from Mike Mentzer; who I'd never heard speak, previously.
The above video has shifted and adjusted the way I consider my practice, and I am considering reducing volume going forward, for now.(as was mentioned earlier, by others)
32kg Swings & Explosive pushups today.
completed 15/5.
Soreness is fairly low.
I take this as a very good sign.
Using a nominal 100 Reps / Session cap.
Iron Cardio (IC) + Hypertrophy (H)
M | T | W | T | F |
|---|---|---|---|---|
IC | ||||
15/3 | IC | IC | 15/6 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 20/3 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 20/4 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 20/5 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 25/2 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 25/3 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 25/4 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 30/2 | IC |
15/3 | IC | IC | 30/3 | IC |
The schedule is subject to change
* = skipped/holiday
* = skipped/holiday
Looking to wrap with a nice tall set of 30 to really pump things up. Mostly, just to see if I can.
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bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
The internet has also decided to show me lots of Mike Mentzer clips for some reason. The one takeaway I’ve gotten is “do enough to get what you need, then get out.” I know I’ve seen multiple forum members say they’ve gotten better gains when they reduced their volume. I don’t know if all of Mentzer’s ideas still hold up (I imagine some of the criticisms are around PED use) but the idea of “do enough, not more” has also helped me.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
"There is nothing new under the sun - except that which has been forgotten."
Something I've gotten from taking a fresh look at Strong Endurance the past several weeks and digging into this Hypertrophy Protocol I wrote (Based on the relevant Strong Endurance template) is that ...
Existing Understanding: There is a trendline that Rest Between Sets increases as the loading increases on an exponential basis. Longer and Longer Rest Periods must be employed so as to allow for a relatively FULL recovery; so that the acid doses and recovery are dealt with more handily, as intended within the paradigm of Strong Endurance.
Refined Understanding: It would seem there is a corollary that I didn't notice in this way before. The frequency of Sessions per week Decreases on an exponential Basis with increased loading. Just as Rests between sets require larger and larger jumps, so too do days between Sessions increase with larger and larger jumps, as the loading increases.
I can not imply anything like - a lowered amount of progress; in explicitly following Stong Endurance protocols for Hypertrophy.
I am actually experiencing faster-than-expected progress, as indicated by unsolicited comments from others about my shoulders - and from my wife; comments on my butt.
The Hypertrophy plan is using Swings and Pushups Alone.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Mike Mentzer
Mentzer was one of the best bodybuilder ever; as you may have discovered.
Mentzer became a proponent of Authur Jones' "High Intensity Training"; performing one set to failure in each exercise.
Mentzer adopted Jone's "HIT" method. Mentzer trained Dorian Yates, who won multilpe Mr Olympias.
High Intensity Training
Some of what we learned from this method was is that High Intensity Training needs to be employed at times; infrequently in a Periodization Training Program.
“Stimulate, don't annihilate.”
This is one of the fundamental issues with many individual, OverTraining.
The Irony of Mentzer and Yates "HIT" Training
Both Mentzer and Yates build their physicues with Traditional Bodybuilding Training, not "HIT".
"HIT" allowed them to maintain it, that's it.
None of today Elite Bodybuiders have use "HIT" to reach their Elite Status nor use it in their training.
If "HIT" was that effective, many would be employing it; which they are not.
Jone's Nautilus Gym Equipment
As previously discussed on the StrongFirst Forum, the issue with Strength Training Exercises is that only one third of the movement is OverLoaded. The remaining two third of an exercise is UnderLoaded.
For results OverLoading the muscle in a movement is the key in obtaining optimal results.
The Nautilus Cam
Jones was ahead of his time; inventing the Natulus Cam for his Strength Equipment.
The Natilus Cam provided an OverLoading of the Muscle through a great Range of the Movement; as do attaching Bands and/or Chains in Ascending Streght Curve Movements.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Lactate
Lactate increases in the muscle when performing Multiple Repetition.
The increase in Lactate decrease Force Production; Maxium Strength and Power.
The good news is that Lactate produce a downstream effect that produces an anabolic, muscle building effect.
Lactate Is Not Lactate Acid
There is a misconception that Lactate is the same as Lactic Acid, which your inferred to.
They are not the same. However, this misinformation continues to be perpetauted.
ATP (Adonsine Triphosphate)
The Phosphagen Energy System is used for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Training.
ATP is pretty much depleted in around 10 seconds.
Longer Rest Periods allow for ATP Muscle Restoration.
1) 30 Seond Rest Period will replete approximately
50% of Muscle ATP.
2) 45 Seonds will restore approzximately 79%.
3) 3 Minutes or longer will replenish 100%.
Thus, for the type of Strength Training mentioned above, this Rest Period Guidelines need to be adheared to.
Training Frequency
Decreasing the number of Training Session as the Load Increases indicates the Weekly Progressive Loading is not well chosen.
The key is to take start a Periodization Training Cycle with a Light, Easy Load. Then take Larger Progressive Load each week.
The the Final Week of the Periodization Training Cycle should be with Load that push you to the limit or close to it.
Once Final Week is completed, a New Periodization Training Cycle is begun with a Light, Easy Load.
Warm Up Fequency
Progressive Loading Increases should be thought of lik Warm Ups.
The objective is to perform the minimal amount of Warm Ups that prepares you for your Top Set in the Final Week of the Periodizaion Training Cycle.
Decreasing the number of Session per week is an indication that your "Warm Ups Weeks" were to heavy.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
HIgh Intensity Training
Mentzer idea comes from Jones.
Mutltiple Sets
Research has demonstrated that Multiple Sets of an Exercise elicit a more efrective Training Response.
Anedotal Data
If "HIT" were that effective, Bodybuilder and Strength Athlete would utilize it. They don't!
With that said, it has a place in training.
Effectiveness of "HIT"
For individual who don't have or want to spend much time in the gym, it is effective.
An individual can get through a compelete workout in around 30 minutes.
However, the "HIT" program need to be part of a Periodization Progressive OverLoading Cycle.
Pushing "HIT" with exercise to failure each week eventually burn an individual out mentally and physically.
“Stimulate, don't annihilate.”
Exactly.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I mean to offer a clarification...
- The various Strong Endurance protocols/templates each have a prescribed frequency.
- A given template/protocol does not prescribe a decreasing frequency.
Chart Comparing Relative Non-Linearity of Rest-Between-Sessions
Intensity Level of Each Protocol | Max Training Frequency (Days / Week) | Average Rest Days Between Sessions |
|---|---|---|
1 | 5+ | 0 |
2 | 5 | 0 |
3 | 4 | 1 |
4 | 3 | 1 |
5 | 2 | 3 |
6 | 1 | 6 |
I found that when I reviewed the templates (and was thinking differently about recovery between sessions) - in Strong Endurance (and Probably other areas of programming) - there is a rather clearly non-linear relationship between the inherent intensities prescribed by the protocols and the rest required by them.some of the increases are as linear as an observable increase of reps per set by increments of 5.
others have per-session-volume differences.
But, as these increments are comparably linear in differences in the loading between separate programs - they demand much more rest between them.
Again, To clarify: a given protocol does not specify a decreasing frequency within its own framework. Rather, each protocol (as they sit on a spectrum of density or intensity) specifies its own regular frequency of training throughout the week; for the duration of the training cycle. And, the newer perspective in my thinking is that this infers a rapidly rising number of days off between sessions for recovery and adaptation. This is an adjustment in my thinking about Programming, Load, Recovery, and related sensations of freshness, and fatigue.
It happens to render differently in my mind's eye, now that I think of it. and it makes some sense, given the intentions of the Strong Endurance program design; which thus far is serving me well. I'm glad for the intentionally acquired Hypertrophy which is apparently visible to others after a few weeks of training.
A Thought on Mentzer and His Evangelism for HIT Training
I do believe it's possible that for the purposes of Body Building (at his elite level) that higher levels of intrasession intensity (Like training to failure in a single set) may have been necessary and successful. And, while it could be the case that HIT-style training was partially useful (and, to whatever extent, effective) for any other trainee, maybe it was (and is) sub-optimal for many beginner or intermediate trainees. I believe there is a special place in the afterlife for anyone who puts their money where their mouth is, practices what they preach, and walks the walk, above and beyond one who talks the talk.
I do find that there is at least something to learn from Mr. Mentzer (and apparently Mr. Jones) and his success, even if it's not the wholesale adoption of all his prescribed methods and implementations. Even without adoption - there is value in considering the information, and his claims, to at least add to my existing, nascent, naive, perspective. I also appreciate his noting that volume beyond necessity is a negative factor. He's rare, (in my memory) but not alone, to offer that claim. But, his presentation is much more aggressive. he claims: Not that it resembles Junk, not that it's neutral, if unnecessary; but that it's Subtractive. "Stimulate, Don't Annihilate" indeed.
In General:
As a neophyte, I'm glad to benefit from those who came before me.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
High Intensity Training
If this approach is so effective, why are Bodybuilder (especially the Elite) not emplying it?
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
Prefacing Caveat: The following thoughts are offered as a thought experiment - and are merely for the sake of argument. My First answer is: I don't know.
I have been a musician all my life. I have been very keenly aware of what is available to us today, and what has ever been available to those in the past.
Pedagogical standards, the underlying standards of performance, and the trajectories of peak quality of performance have been increasing forever.
I'm keenly aware that - that which is available to me in terms of tools and accouterments vastly outweighs that which was available to the highest professionals of yesteryear.
- However -
There are such things as Artist associated products.
Van Halen Guitars
Brian May Amplifiers
Tommy Johnson Tuba Mouthpieces
The truth is Tommy Johnson (one of the greatest Tuba Players who ever lived) could make a paper towel roll sound good.
It probably never really mattered what these legendary musicians ever chose; except that they favored their chosen implements. It may never be perfectly clear whether the craftsman chooses the tool or vice versa.
It could be said that their talent's collision with greatness was inevitable.
Similarly, there are Methods (So-Called) that many artists have developed on their own; in service to their craft, and posterity. These are divergent, and competing ways to order and teach musical concepts and techniques. There are even competing ways to annotate, write, and scribe music itself.
These methods (much like some of these artist-associated products) fall into and out of favor over time. It could be said that we go around in circles learning what has been forgotten, while we attempt to mend unmendable problems in how to teach learn practice and perform music.
which ones are better? it's possible that none of them can be best - as they all suffer from some sort of imperfection if not deficiency. (depending on how you view it)
- SO -
I offer a faint, but important memory, that I carry in the back of my head, of an interview with Pavel Tsatsouline.
I believe he was discussing the effectiveness of the Soviet System and a period of time when it was moved away from by some organization. Maybe it was the US Olympic team. Maybe others.
the way I remember the relevant idea from the interview was that Pavel had been prompted like this.
I paraphrase:
Q: Well if this was so effective then why did they stop doing it? Why would they move on to something else?
A: Maybe they got bored.
Forgive me that some of the details have fallen away from my memory, but this answer stuck with me.
to return to my preface and caveat - I don't really know. I'm not well informed on bodybuilding - its history, practice, and the movement of its common understandings, and developments.
but I fully understand as a musician, that the answer to the question: "why would they do anything else if it was so effective?" could very realistically be: "Because they got bored."
why wouldn't the elites use HIT?
Maybe it's boring - and, or - unattractive.
Maybe it doesn't work.
Maybe it's a useless pile of blather.
- P.S. -
I can't help but note: memorizing your scales is the most essential of all activities. It is loathed by all musicians as contemptible drudgery. The paradox is terribly ironic.
That which is difficult is not necessarily worth the trouble.
That which is worth the trouble is not always attractive.
That which improves is not always viewed as profitable, even if it's known to be essential.
As a musician I know - that there are things that are inherently valuable that people will not invest their time and money for. Simultaneously there are things that are inherently fleeting and will soon be dispatched to the dustbin of history - that many will chase down unproductive dead ended rabbit holes.And even though I KNOW this for a fact - I can not avoid it completely. I'm only human, like the rest of them.
There are so many things - maybe all - that can only be learned through retrospection.
Finding out whether something works, and if so how well or poorly - often - requires trying it out - to the hilt.
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Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Does a 'like' mean that I liked what you said or that I liked that you said it?
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
worthy of note.
I pulled a new chart from my log and it pretty clearly shows that ~50 sessions in my Iron Cardio Progress is relatively flat, only slightly positive overall.
The blue is the raw number of sets, which at first were all just classic sets.
The red tries to account for additional loading experienced from other protocols, like Traveling 2s, alternating weights, etc.
As Mark Rippetoe once put it very simply:
The question is: does this lift need more or less work?
In this case: my guess is that this could use Less Work; for the time being.
Looking at cutting Wednesdays and doing 2xHypertrophy days, and 2xIron Cardio. M, T, Th, F.
I'm not currently perturbed or deterred by this.
I'm currently prioritizing Hypertrophy.
I suppose I'll be back to Iron Cardio prioritizing strength in a couple of months.
Unexpected strength increase:
Hypertrophy Progress So Far: ~4 weeks
It's just little bits and bites of progress in the intended direction.
So far - so good.
I pulled a new chart from my log and it pretty clearly shows that ~50 sessions in my Iron Cardio Progress is relatively flat, only slightly positive overall.
The blue is the raw number of sets, which at first were all just classic sets.
The red tries to account for additional loading experienced from other protocols, like Traveling 2s, alternating weights, etc.
As Mark Rippetoe once put it very simply:
The question is: does this lift need more or less work?
In this case: my guess is that this could use Less Work; for the time being.
Looking at cutting Wednesdays and doing 2xHypertrophy days, and 2xIron Cardio. M, T, Th, F.
I'm not currently perturbed or deterred by this.
I'm currently prioritizing Hypertrophy.
I suppose I'll be back to Iron Cardio prioritizing strength in a couple of months.
Unexpected strength increase:
I haven't used Push Presses for the 40kg bell yet.
I expected to do so when introducing the 40kg presses in the alternating weights protocol.
Hasn't been necessary yet.
Hypertrophy Progress So Far: ~4 weeks
- I've received unsolicited comments on positive changes in my appearance from others.
- I looked down and was startled that I couldn't see my kneecaps, because my quads were in the way. (That's new)
- I was laying down on my side and I could feel my left and right chest pushing against each other at the sternum. (That's new)
- T-shirt sleeves are currently fitting tight to my arm. (That's new)
- The soreness experienced in the first few weeks is now subsiding. (Time to ramp it up a bit)
It's just little bits and bites of progress in the intended direction.
So far - so good.
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