Barbell SF Theory Strength Only Moves Questions

[Kozushi]

I've kind of settled on deadlifts, kettlebell military presses and ring dips (okay, and walking, too hahaha!) as my training moves outside of S&S. I'd like to fine tune this a little more with some advice if anyone's willing to offer some. I'm obviously being inspired by Power To The People here. In the book the emphasis is almost completely on the deadlift with the press being a kind of counter balance movement. I'm trying to go heavier and heavier with the press to get to a half bodyweight press eventually - is this somehow in conflict with the dadlifts (I doubt it but...?) I'm doing the ring dips out of the theory that moving my own body is a different kind of strength from moving weights. Again, is this exercise out of sync with the others, or is it actually superfluous or detracts from focus I should be putting into the others?

I deadlift 370lbs for a few reps a set, press the 32kg kettlebell for 2-5 reps a set and ring dip 6-7 reps a set.

 

[Sean M]

“A pull and a press” are in the DNA of most every Pavel/SF program:

• Original PM: Snatch and Bent Press
• Revised PM and S&S: Swings and Getups (a pseudo-isometric press)
• PttP: Deadlift and Press
• RoP: Clean/Swing/Snatch and Press

Even the core GS lift - long cycle clean & jerk - is a pull and a press.

I’d say they compliment each other very well.

 

[Antti]

I'm not sure I understand your questions. The press is not in conflict with the deadlifts. The dips may influence the press, and vice versa.

If I'm allowed to be blunt it's like you choose your exercises first and goals second. That said, nothing wrong with deadlifts and presses. But what do you want to do, and how well? What means do you have?

 

[krg]

If you're pressing a lot I would have thought pull-ups would be the logical partner - as used in Right of Passage.

I'm going to be controversial here but I think ring dips are a fast route to shoulder injury.

 

[Kozushi]

I'm not sure I understand your questions. The press is not in conflict with the deadlifts. The dips may influence the press, and vice versa.

If I'm allowed to be blunt it's like you choose your exercises first and goals second. That said, nothing wrong with deadlifts and presses. But what do you want to do, and how well? What means do you have?

Yes, good point. The point about goals is philosophical. I see lots of guys in the sports that I do choose arbitrary goals and then shoot for them. I don't say anything to them, but I really don't see any logical basis for their goals. For instance, "I want a black belt before I turn X age" or "I want to win yay many tournaments this year", or whatever - honestly, WHY?

My goals - to look and feel fit and strong, to avoid heart disease, diabetes and strokes, to live long, to have energy, to enjoy a pursuit not tied to other things in life, to enjoy the feelings of movement and strength, to exercise the whole body, to enjoy the outdoors, to be strong for judo.

The exercises I'm taking from Pavel's theory mainly - big pull and big push pairing, so deadlift and press - okay, simple. I'm also trying to get lifting myself in there so bodyweight mastery, thus dips and walking. Elsewise, I've got S&S and judo.

 

[Kozushi]

“A pull and a press” are in the DNA of most every Pavel/SF program:

• Original PM: Snatch and Bent Press
• Revised PM and S&S: Swings and Getups (a pseudo-isometric press)
• PttP: Deadlift and Press
• RoP: Clean/Swing/Snatch and Press

Even the core GS lift - long cycle clean & jerk - is a pull and a press.

I’d say they compliment each other very well.

The easiest mix is the deadlift and the press, in terms of best results with the least amount of effort. I've never felt so strong and looked so fit before in my life.

I never heard of the original Program Minimum - interesting: snatch and bent press.

The benefits of HIIRT are nothing to shake a stick at, which deadlifts and presses don't deal with.

Something I think I see in the development of Pavel's though over the years is that while the balance of one big pull with one big push has remained constant, he has been adding in more HIIRT training. I think one could argue that both exercises in S&S are HIIRT, one of the two in RoP and the original PM, and none of PttP. But, the intensity of the HIIRT stuff (100 swings, 5 minutes of snatches, TGUs even etc) is a bit problematic to get stuck with as a work out when you may be just after pure strength and muscle gains (so, back to PTTP of course!) I've been pretty sick for the past two weeks (and grumpy) for example, so S&S with all its intensity was out of the question, but PTTP type-workouts and walks were okay to do.

 

[Kozushi]

If you're pressing a lot I would have thought pull-ups would be the logical partner - as used in Right of Passage.

I'm going to be controversial here but I think ring dips are a fast route to shoulder injury.

I've actually been using the dips to heal my shoulders. If you keep your arms close to your ribs the whole time, I don't think they're too dangerous, at least for me they seem fine.

 

[Sean M]

I never heard of the original Program Minimum - interesting: snatch and bent press.

It was in the original Russian Kettlebell Challenge book. Not a program per se, just that those two moves are rare commended, using the Easy Strength/SF principles we are familiar with.

 

[Kyle Kowalczuk]

Sounds good man. As everyone pretty much already said. A deadlift and a press is like meat and potatoes. It just works. For the deadlift I would recommend easy strength as that will get you a lot of rep practice and has some variety to keep it fresh over time if you swap deadlift variations every 2 weeks.

If you get to a point where you plateau with the deadlift I recommend a 6 week conjugate cycle. It’s great for shocking the CNS and building 1 rep strength but isn’t sustainable over time.

Good luck

 

[H. Mac]

I've actually been using the dips to heal my shoulders. If you keep your arms close to your ribs the whole time, I don't think they're too dangerous, at least for me they seem fine.

Agreed! I’m also a fan of PTTP and believe that presses and deadlifts go together like eggs and hot sauce.

Im 64, do KB presses and trap bar deadlifts 3-5 times a week, and use almost the identical weights that you do.

A few years ago, the orthopaedists and therapists who helped me with shoulder and neck problems advised that if I was set on using those weights for those lifts so frequently, I should include a few sets of “anti-gravity” exercises like dips, chin ups, or pull ups.

Their theory is that the “anti-gravity” exercises might help avoid the potential compression (especially of the spinal discs) that could result from the deads and presses.

I do dips with my arms close to my sides, shoulders down, and limit the range of motion to 90 degrees or less.

You mentioned going heavier and heavier with the presses. That might work, but I follow the “cycling” advice (PTTP p. 51) for pressing (deads too).

After doing these exercises for about 4 years, I’ve had no problems and am stronger than ever.

Good luck!

 

[Kozushi]

Agreed! I’m also a fan of PTTP and believe that presses and deadlifts go together like eggs and hot sauce.

Im 64, do KB presses and trap bar deadlifts 3-5 times a week, and use almost the identical weights that you do.

A few years ago, the orthopaedists and therapists who helped me with shoulder and neck problems advised that if I was set on using those weights for those lifts so frequently, I should include a few sets of “anti-gravity” exercises like dips, chin ups, or pull ups.

Their theory is that the “anti-gravity” exercises might help avoid the potential compression (especially of the spinal discs) that could result from the deads and presses.

I do dips with my arms close to my sides, shoulders down, and limit the range of motion to 90 degrees or less.

You mentioned going heavier and heavier with the presses. That might work, but I follow the “cycling” advice (PTTP p. 51) for pressing (deads too).

After doing these exercises for about 4 years, I’ve had no problems and am stronger than ever.

Good luck!

I'm not just really strong but LOOK it too! I think the anti-gravity (I like that term! Sums it up perfectly!) move is needed to prevent injury or at least it's a healthy thing to do to exercise the muscles in an opposite way! I don't feel the need to do more than dips anti-gravity wise. I'm going to work on chinups too just because they're good and I'm interested in callsithenics, but I think as a complementary exercise only one bodyweight move is needed to counterbalance the deadlifts and presses.

I wonder if a 370lbs deadlift is "strong enough" or if I should be pushing myself to go farther.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I'm not sure I understand your questions. The press is not in conflict with the deadlifts. The dips may influence the press, and vice versa.

If I'm allowed to be blunt it's like you choose your exercises first and goals second. That said, nothing wrong with deadlifts and presses. But what do you want to do, and how well? What means do you have?

101.
Goals define the exercise selection.

 

[Bret S.]

A few years ago, the orthopaedists and therapists who helped me with shoulder and neck problems advised that if I was set on using those weights for those lifts so frequently, I should include a few sets of “anti-gravity” exercises like dips, chin ups, or pull ups

Sums it up perfectly!) move is needed to prevent injury or at least it's a healthy thing to do to exercise the muscles in an opposite way!

Back in the 80's (old BB days) I knew a guy who was kinda on the skinny side but with some dense muscle going who could bench press a lot of weight, consequently his front delts were huge with little counter support from his opposing rear delt upper back.
I could see back then the imbalance and we talked about it, his shoulders were already rolling forward. I'm not sure if he ever corrected his path as I moved from the area but he was headed for some pain in the future.
For me supersets of opposing muscles always felt right and I avoided strength imbalance problems. Back then I knew this was important though not many people were talking about it. I still pay close attention to this today.

 

[apa]

I believe @Pavel Macek recommended using EtK ladders for kettlebells with deadlifts, because presses need volume.

For example:

Monday (light) 5x1
Wednesday (medium) 5x1,2
Friday (heavy) 5x1,2,3

Very slowly work up to that heavy volume. If you want to do dips you could always do AB AB AB, i.e 3 pressing sessions and 3 dip sessions in 2 weeks. Definitely add pullups at some point.

Keep in mind that I am not a professional. Have fun.

 

[Alan Mackey]

As a fervorous fan of truly minimalistic programs, I always liked these two setups:

Option 1

Day 1
Squat (doesn’t matter which variation you choose) plus pull ups.

Day 2
Deadlift (doesn’t matter which variation you choose) plus dips.


Option 2

Trap bar lift or snatch grip deadlift(*), plus dips and pull ups.

(*) The best hybrid between a hinge and a knee bend movement.

One could get freakishly strong doing just that.

 

[Antti]

When it comes to goals, all of them are arbitrary. We make a personal value decision.

In general, I think you're on a good path. Push, pull... Dan John likes to add hinge, squat and carry. I agree. I also like to do more than the minimum, so to say. I enjoy lifting and I find a good variety of exercises beneficial.

I'm not sure why but it seems to me you're pretty set on your exercise selection with little experience outside it. If you're into Pavel, for example, he sees great value in squat and bench press. Why not try them out? And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I also can't see why restrict yourself to some numbers on each lift. I can get it if you hit a plateau that takes too much to get over, but I can't read that in your posts. Just lift. A lot. Different lifts.

 

[Pantrolyx]

I'm not just really strong but LOOK it too! I think the anti-gravity (I like that term! Sums it up perfectly!) move is needed to prevent injury or at least it's a healthy thing to do to exercise the muscles in an opposite way! I don't feel the need to do more than dips anti-gravity wise. I'm going to work on chinups too just because they're good and I'm interested in callsithenics, but I think as a complementary exercise only one bodyweight move is needed to counterbalance the deadlifts and presses.

I wonder if a 370lbs deadlift is "strong enough" or if I should be pushing myself to go farther.

If you enjoy deadlifting and experience benefits from doing them, then I can't really see a reason as to why you shouldn't aim to get stronger at it. I guess the most common argument used against 1RM ambitions is that you (as a non-powerlifter) should avoid being to specialised, but I don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard yet.

 

[Pavel Macek]

I believe @Pavel Macek recommended using EtK ladders for kettlebells with deadlifts, because presses need volume.

For example:

Monday (light) 5x1
Wednesday (medium) 5x1,2
Friday (heavy) 5x1,2,3

Very slowly work up to that heavy volume. If you want to do dips you could always do AB AB AB, i.e 3 pressing sessions and 3 dip sessions in 2 weeks. Definitely add pullups at some point.

Keep in mind that I am not a professional. Have fun.

Actualy Pavel's recommendation - quote:

Q: Pavel, do you have any plans to release or discuss a KB compliment to the P2P deadlifting program? I suspect many folks would be interested in using kettlebells for the upper body pressing instead of side presses with the Olympic bar.

A: Peter, you may use the ‘Enter the Kettlebell!’ Right of Passage press plan, just lower the volume to 3 ladders.
...there are several options. One is (12345)x3 on the heavy day, x2 on the medium day, and x1 on the light day.​

 

[apa]

Actualy Pavel's recommendation - quote:

​

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I'm doing the ring dips out of the theory that moving my own body is a different kind of strength from moving weights.

Moving Weight Is Moving Weight

Performing Rig Dips and Moving Weight (Barbell, Dumbbell, Kettlebell, etc). It elicits that same response.

Kenny Croxdale