Barbell SF Theory Strength Only Moves Questions

[Kenny Croxdale]

I knew a guy...who could bench press a lot of weight, consequently his front delts were huge with little counter support from his opposing rear delt upper back.

I could see back then the imbalance and we talked about it, his shoulders were already rolling forward. I'm not sure if he ever corrected his path as I moved from the area but he was headed for some pain in the future.

Muscle Imbalance

This is a great point. One of the keys to improving performance and limiting injuries is to work antagonist muscle groups.

Research has demonstrated what Bret stated, if the antagonist muscle group (opposite muscle group) is not trained, it eventually leads to a decrease in performance and injury.

A great study on this is...

Major League Baseball Pitchers

Researcher looked at why some Baseball Pitchers had long careers with few injuries, while some had short careers due to injury; throwing their arm out.

One of the primary finding is External Rotator Cuff Strength.

Baseball Pitcher with long careers had Strong External Rotator Cuff Strength.

Baseball Pitchers with short careers had Weak External Rotator Cuff Strength.

Hamstring Issues

Emmett Smith (former Dallas Cowboy Running Back) had Hamstring Pull issues. The reason was that his Quad Strength was so great that it overload his Hamstrings.

For me supersets of opposing muscles always felt right and I avoided strength imbalance problems. Back then I knew this was important though not many people were talking about it. I still pay close attention to this today.

Super Setting Opposite Muscle Groups

1) It maintains a balance of Agonist:Antagonist Muscle; you are less prone to injury

2) It increase Strength and Power Output.

Secondly, Antagonist Muscle groups act like a Braking System during a Agonist Exercise.

Bench Press Example

Performing a Lat Movement (Bent Over Row, Lat Pulldown, etc) before your Bench Press Set enables you to produce more force in your Bench Press Set.

"Pressing strength increases dramatically by working the antagonist muscles between sets of benching." Source: Arnold's Agonist-Antagonist Training | T Nation

Performing a Lat Movement relaxes the Lats (the Antagonist Muscle of the Bench Press; Pecs, Anterior Deltoid, and Triceps) allowing you to produce more force (Strength or Power, dependent on your Training Percentage) in your Bench Press Set.

Driving With The Brake On

Think of tight Antagonist Muscles like diving your car with the brake on.

Performing an Antagonist Exercise first, followed by an Angonist "Releases the Brake"; enabling you to drive the weight up with greater force. I.E. Lat Exercise followed by Bench Press.

With that said, the Lat Exercise (in this case) should not be so taxing that it take away from your Bench Press. Your Lat Exercise should be moderately heavy; heavy enough to relax fhe Antagonist Lats, enabling you to increase your force production in your Agonist Bench Press.

Stretching A Agonist Muscle Group

As we know, research shows stretching a muscle group that you are working prior to the set and in between sets in an exercise dampens Strength and Power.

Stretching An Antagonist Muscle Group

Stretching an Antagonist Muscle Group before performing an Agonist Exercise increases Strength and Power. It allows the Antagonist Muscle Group to relax; it releases the Brake.

Many Powerlifters do this prior to Benching in the gym or at meets. They often perform a Row on the Bench Press Bar. They pull themselves up to the bar before setting up for the Bench Press.

Some also simply perform an Isometric Row to the Bench Press Bar, stretching the Lats before Bench Pressing.

Chris Thibaudeau Pulling Recommendations

Like Thibaudeau (Canadian Strength Coach), I am a proponent of employing a greater ratio of Upper Body Pulling Exercise to Upper Body Pushing Exercises to ensure and maintain balance.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Bret S.]

Like Thibaudeau (Canadian Strength Coach), I am a proponent of employing a greater ratio of Upper Body Pulling Exercise to Upper Body Pushing Exercises to ensure and maintain balance.

I pull 80% of the time, for me it's much easier on joints and feels body friendly.

 

[Kozushi]

Actualy Pavel's recommendation - quote:

Q: Pavel, do you have any plans to release or discuss a KB compliment to the P2P deadlifting program? I suspect many folks would be interested in using kettlebells for the upper body pressing instead of side presses with the Olympic bar.

A: Peter, you may use the ‘Enter the Kettlebell!’ Right of Passage press plan, just lower the volume to 3 ladders.
...there are several options. One is (12345)x3 on the heavy day, x2 on the medium day, and x1 on the light day.​

I'm glad you've posted his exact quotation here since that would seem much more sensible if one owns kettlebells than taking apart the barbell for no reason to do presses with it - and the bar is pretty light!

In terms of raw strength and appearance, this pairing of deadlifts and kettlebell presses I've been at for several months now is doing more than anything I have done before. I don't at all think that strength is the only thing that matters for exercise, but it can stand alone if one is pressed for workout time etc, and I'd argue it's the most important component of exercise, at least for me.

 

[Kozushi]

I pull 80% of the time, for me it's much easier on joints and feels body friendly.

Pavel's theory in his books is that the pulling movement exercises nearly your whole body and the pushing movement fills in the gaps left. This certainly makes sense to me.

 

[Kozushi]

Some questions came up about goals and the idea of progressing in weight. My goals are to keep my whole body "strong" whatever that means, so I trust Pavel's theories on this since his stuff seems sound, is applauded by many people and is based on strength, efficiency and takes into account things besides raw strength like coordination, power, endurance etc. At some point for me it's "strong enough!" and I don't know what the health or sport benefits are of progressing, but I'm certainly going to move up in weight as exercises get easier.

 

[H. Mac]

In terms of raw strength and appearance, this pairing of deadlifts and kettlebell presses I've been at for several months now is doing more than anything I have done before.

Same for me. About 3 months ago, I increased the weight I was using for KB presses and trap bar deadlifts, and started doing them 3-5 times a week. My only motive was that I really like these lifts.

But I’ve noticed that several of my shirts now fit tightly in the shoulders and arms. Weights that were a bit challenging six months ago are now almost too light to use for warm ups. Other exercises, like chip ups, dips, and swimming, also seem much easier.

I plan to continue doing lots of KB swings and TGUs, and also plan to continuing doing lots of trap bar deads and KB presses. I’ll do other exercises too, but these four are my favorites.

With PTTP, Pavel hit an out-of-the-park home run!

 

[Kozushi]

Same for me. About 3 months ago, I increased the weight I was using for KB presses and trap bar deadlifts, and started doing them 3-5 times a week. My only motive was that I really like these lifts.

But I’ve noticed that several of my shirts now fit tightly in the shoulders and arms. Weights that were a bit challenging six months ago are now almost too light to use for warm ups. Other exercises, like chip ups, dips, and swimming, also seem much easier.

I plan to continue doing lots of KB swings and TGUs, and also plan to continuing doing lots of trap bar deads and KB presses. I’ll do other exercises too, but these four are my favorites.

With PTTP, Pavel hit an out-of-the-park home run!

I agree. PTTP is extremely simple, takes little time, but makes you ridiculously strong all over! I've found the same as you regarding other exercises like chinups. I can get pretty close to a full lever on the chinup bar, and this is without training for it, just doing deadlifts!

Thanks for sharing your experiences - it's very interesting to me that you have experienced the same changes as I have following the theory behind Pavel's PTTP work.

 

[Kozushi]

Actualy Pavel's recommendation - quote:

Q: Pavel, do you have any plans to release or discuss a KB compliment to the P2P deadlifting program? I suspect many folks would be interested in using kettlebells for the upper body pressing instead of side presses with the Olympic bar.

A: Peter, you may use the ‘Enter the Kettlebell!’ Right of Passage press plan, just lower the volume to 3 ladders.
...there are several options. One is (12345)x3 on the heavy day, x2 on the medium day, and x1 on the light day.​

Just to split hairs - does he mean clean and press, side press or military press?

 

[Pavel Macek]

Just to split hairs - does he mean clean and press, side press or military press?

Kettlebell C&P, just like in ROP.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I wonder if a 370lbs deadlift is "strong enough" or if I should be pushing myself to go farther.

On the freeway this morning, I was in the middle lane with my cruise control on. The car in the right lane, was pacing themselves off my speed. When it came to my exit, I slowed down to change lanes. The car next to me, using me as a pace car, did the same thing. Here we were in a weird game of cat and mouse that was preventing me moving over to take my exit because the other driver was benchmarking from me but had a completely different destination.

Whether you think 370# is strong or weak, you're right.

 

[Ken_]

Not an expert, but I would add a pullup to PTTP as the 3rd lift. That way you have three movements: hinge, push, and pull.

Actually, looking at Easier Strength the other movements are squat and loaded carry, so I guess you could add one of those as well.

 

[dc]

Not an expert, but I would add a pullup to PTTP as the 3rd lift. That way you have three movements: hinge, push, and pull.

Wouldn’t you consider the deadlift a rather big pull?
I’d still say it’s a good addition if you wanted one, but I would be using it more for a spinal decompression than a pull.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

Wouldn’t you consider the deadlift a rather big pull?

I think of the relationship between deadlift and pullup to be like the relationship between the TGU and a press - there's certainly overlap in the stabilizers and the grip, but the deadlift is static (at least to the arms). I'm not convinced that it's really the same "movement", per se - I'm doubtful that, at least for a decently trained person, deadlifting will increase your weighted pullup (and vice versa).

 

[Ken_]

Wouldn’t you consider the deadlift a rather big pull?
I’d still say it’s a good addition if you wanted one, but I would be using it more for a spinal decompression than a pull.

I guess you could consider it a pull. That occurred to me as well, but I was just going by the way Dan John categorized the lifts in Even Easier Strength.

Good point about spinal decompression for pull ups.

 

[H. Mac]

I think of the relationship between deadlift and pullup to be like the relationship between the TGU and a press - there's certainly overlap in the stabilizers and the grip, but the deadlift is static (at least to the arms). I'm not convinced that it's really the same "movement", per se - I'm doubtful that, at least for a decently trained person, deadlifting will increase your weighted pullup (and vice versa).

Since performing trap bar deads and KB presses for a few month made chin ups and other exercises seem easier to me (as stated I’m my post above), your post makes me curious;

Are you offering your thoughts, or have you actually tried chin ups after a few months of deadlifts and KP presses?

I’m curious because people have experienced the WTH factor from S&S, and it seems that a similar factor results from deads and KB presses. That’s why I ask.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

Are you offering your thoughts, or have you actually tried chin ups after a few months of deadlifts and KP presses?

My personal experience. I haven't noticed anything making pull ups easier other than doing pull ups. If I don't do pull ups for a while, deadlift or KB work doesn't seem to sustain it, even, I seem to lose it.

But, I'm a fairly heavy guy (230#), maybe that's part of it. And I can't claim to have a whole lot of data.

 

[guardian7]

Back in the 80's (old BB days) I knew a guy who was kinda on the skinny side but with some dense muscle going who could bench press a lot of weight, consequently his front delts were huge with little counter support from his opposing rear delt upper back.
I could see back then the imbalance and we talked about it, his shoulders were already rolling forward. I'm not sure if he ever corrected his path as I moved from the area but he was headed for some pain in the future.
For me supersets of opposing muscles always felt right and I avoided strength imbalance problems. Back then I knew this was important though not many people were talking about it. I still pay close attention to this today.

For this reason, Kettlebell or dumbell or cable seated rows are an important complement to the main SF lifts. Pullups and rows could be alternated around the main lift choices. The row seems neglected in most KB programs. Sure it gets a mention and is in some complexes I have seen but should probably be included as it is in many non-powerlifting barbell programs. I also like face pulls as an accessory lift. Clean and press may help to some degree but many people seem to deemphasize the clean after getting the basics down.