Other/Mixed Short Thoughts on Martial Arts I've Done
- Thread starter Kozushi
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
- Status
Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
If we are talking about possible real life encounters I'd say it really doesn't matter which MA you practice. In a 1vs1 against average Joe the MA practioner will most likely win, because he at least knows some moves that can hurt the other, some to defend himself and he'll overall will have a better balance and "movement prediction" (can't find a better word now).
The best "MA" for a fight in general and particulary against armed foes or multiple foes is
1. a good sense of avoiding situations like that and
2. the 400m dash, because it's better to swallow your ego, run away and live than engaging in a possibly deadly fight.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Unless you have family members to protect.
Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
That would be the exception.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
That's why I train for fast hit and away, or fast hit and stay in it till they're down. Something else I picked up from my first instructor. To paraphrase:
"This isn't sport, win or lose it's going to be over fast, the longer it goes on the more chances a lesser trained opponent has to tag me."
Back in the day we all would get together for sparring, different styles and skill levels. Even tougher untrained folk don't hold up well against trained. Though on the street, the mental ability to "get it on" and even to recognize its indeed "go time" and talk is over or never entered into the equation is almost more important.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Also, it's about unleashing your pitiless aggression.
conor78
Level 6 Valued Member
"Be the hammer or the anvil." G Thompson.
If you read his work preemptive striking is his guiding principle. That's pretty controversial over here and it's certainly not something I would use unless I felt my own life or my families was in danger. Tony Blauer has a spear system that's made for self defence and it seems quite effective. I did KM for 2 years and always had a nagging doubt about how effective it claimed to be. The odds of surviving an attack by multiple attackers is minimal, knife defence I don't even want to consider the odds. It was scary to see a lot of guys I trained with walking around convinced they could actually execute some of this stuff. Good for the ego, but if push came to shove I dread to think how it would pan out. As Thompson has found out from working security for years in very violent pubs pre-emptive striking is the most direct route to staying in one piece in a self defence situation.
If you read his work preemptive striking is his guiding principle. That's pretty controversial over here and it's certainly not something I would use unless I felt my own life or my families was in danger. Tony Blauer has a spear system that's made for self defence and it seems quite effective. I did KM for 2 years and always had a nagging doubt about how effective it claimed to be. The odds of surviving an attack by multiple attackers is minimal, knife defence I don't even want to consider the odds. It was scary to see a lot of guys I trained with walking around convinced they could actually execute some of this stuff. Good for the ego, but if push came to shove I dread to think how it would pan out. As Thompson has found out from working security for years in very violent pubs pre-emptive striking is the most direct route to staying in one piece in a self defence situation.
Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
That can be a real problem. People get too confident, because they practice MA and instead of avoiding the fight or running away they think that they can get into the fight and come out on top...and then they get hurt or killed. A good self-defence instructor tells you 10000 times that even though he tought you how to defend yourself, avoiding the fight always has to be your number 1 objective.
I'm with you and him. For me it would be a last resort kind of thing, but I share his opinion that the one who strikes first has a massive advantage in a "street fight".
BTW I practiced Judo in my childhood and liked it a lot. I think it's a good MA for average Joe, because besides other things you learn how to fall without hurting yourself. At least that was the case in the facility I went to.
Learning to fall safely and then getting up without problems (maybe because you practice TGUs) is so important.
Last edited:
conor78
Level 6 Valued Member
I did a bit of Judo as a child but a lot of the clubs here struggle for numbers as BJJ has made inroads into attracting younger members. It's a fantastic Martial Art and a lot of the men that I know who still compete are well into their 50's. Funny enough they have a kettlebell type physique if such a thing exists, powerful shoulders and forearms with insane grip strength.
wespom9
Level 6 Valued Member
For anyone that has judo experience - I am quite interested in learning progressions on how to properly take a fall. I work with ample older adults, and while I would likely need to alter the concepts for increased safety (cushioned mats, etc.) I truly believe incorporating some sort of training would prove invaluable.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Real fighting involves weapons and it's for killing. That stuff is no joke and it's hopefully something we won't ever have to come near to.
Our judo club did some tests from time to time giving one guy a fake knife and the other guy nothing and watched what would happen. The guy without the knife had exactly 0% chance of winning or even of living.
Our judo club did some tests from time to time giving one guy a fake knife and the other guy nothing and watched what would happen. The guy without the knife had exactly 0% chance of winning or even of living.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I think this is for good reason. BJJ is safe yet good exercise, and on top of that it has very engaging interesting rules. Judo isn't safe, is painful, and the rules are complicated, and I wouldn't say it's better exercise - about the same. I do think that judo is a better overall fighting system because it has enough time spent standing up and fighting from there. Only being comfortable fighting from your knees or you back is really not good.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
If the opponent has little training and the lighting is good, and you aren't caught off guard, it is possible to do some pretty snazzy redirections and maybe even disarm or at least sweep their leg(s) vs a knife attack and lock the arm out.
If they have any training you are in serious trouble. They won't be coming straight for your trunk, they'll hit your defense first and then go for the vitals - they're expecting you to attempt some sort of trap or jam. This approach is extremely difficult to counter with any level of training - how often in the "knife defense" demo's do you see the attacker feint to the trunk and strike the peripherals?
Also, the straight ahead rapid stab prison shanking attack with a bent arm is one of the toughest to defend. Pretty much the only reliable defense is to stop hit their attacking upper arm and then counter to the vitals. This requires you to circle away from their alive hand and toward the weapon (not instinctive), if they get their freehand on you for even an instant and interfere with either of your arms or movement you're going to be perforated.
Anyone walking around with confidence barehand vs a knife is a knucklehead. Its something you should train but avoid as much as possible. When I was doing a lot of classes and working on it at home, I got to the point where I could redirect pretty reliably and if I had anything in my hands to strike their arm I could pound it pretty good. Otherwise, redirect and low kick. And that against someone with little or no training. It takes a lot of time working against a knife wielding opponent to get any measure of well deserved confidence.
In my Kali class we worked unarmed vs knife almost every session. In fact often our only knife drilling would be as the aggressor. Instructor once asked how many of us even had a knife on us regularly that we could get out rapidly, only two raised our hands. "Even if you have a weapon on you, you're going to have to survive the first couple seconds at least without it." Yup...
From a fitness POV, I really found isometrics to do a great job for improving raw striking speed.
If they have any training you are in serious trouble. They won't be coming straight for your trunk, they'll hit your defense first and then go for the vitals - they're expecting you to attempt some sort of trap or jam. This approach is extremely difficult to counter with any level of training - how often in the "knife defense" demo's do you see the attacker feint to the trunk and strike the peripherals?
Also, the straight ahead rapid stab prison shanking attack with a bent arm is one of the toughest to defend. Pretty much the only reliable defense is to stop hit their attacking upper arm and then counter to the vitals. This requires you to circle away from their alive hand and toward the weapon (not instinctive), if they get their freehand on you for even an instant and interfere with either of your arms or movement you're going to be perforated.
Anyone walking around with confidence barehand vs a knife is a knucklehead. Its something you should train but avoid as much as possible. When I was doing a lot of classes and working on it at home, I got to the point where I could redirect pretty reliably and if I had anything in my hands to strike their arm I could pound it pretty good. Otherwise, redirect and low kick. And that against someone with little or no training. It takes a lot of time working against a knife wielding opponent to get any measure of well deserved confidence.
In my Kali class we worked unarmed vs knife almost every session. In fact often our only knife drilling would be as the aggressor. Instructor once asked how many of us even had a knife on us regularly that we could get out rapidly, only two raised our hands. "Even if you have a weapon on you, you're going to have to survive the first couple seconds at least without it." Yup...
From a fitness POV, I really found isometrics to do a great job for improving raw striking speed.
BCman
Level 6 Valued Member
My favorite subject
I've been doing Okinawan Karate 32 years. And I know I would have little hope of beating many different martial arts at their Game.
But I don't train to beat other styles. Only to defend myself against the most common attacks, most people use(especially from untrained fighters).
The way you train, is the way you will defend yourself. Because it becomes instinct, when under extreme pressure. So if you always punch & or kick, or grapple, or go to the ground, or whatever? that's what you're going to do most likely in a real fight.
If some one came to me and asked if they should do martial arts or strength training? As in what's more practical for life in general. I would say strength training hands down. I got in a lot of fights with bullies back in my school days, But never been in a real fight as an adult. But have had to use strength a lot, and at often unforeseen times. To me, general prepared fitness(strength) beats the martial arts at everyday life.
Al
I've been doing Okinawan Karate 32 years. And I know I would have little hope of beating many different martial arts at their Game.
But I don't train to beat other styles. Only to defend myself against the most common attacks, most people use(especially from untrained fighters).
The way you train, is the way you will defend yourself. Because it becomes instinct, when under extreme pressure. So if you always punch & or kick, or grapple, or go to the ground, or whatever? that's what you're going to do most likely in a real fight.
If some one came to me and asked if they should do martial arts or strength training? As in what's more practical for life in general. I would say strength training hands down. I got in a lot of fights with bullies back in my school days, But never been in a real fight as an adult. But have had to use strength a lot, and at often unforeseen times. To me, general prepared fitness(strength) beats the martial arts at everyday life.
Al
conor78
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm really interested/excited to see what SF combat entails. Hopefully this is rolled out across the SF universe. My brother has been doing MMA and he has a fight in May. I've been introducing him to KB s and a lot of his S and Conditioning coaches are kettlebell people. Even in terms of self defence KB's offer a lot of bang for your buck in terms of conditioning and toughening up the body. One of the biggest plusses for me is that I don't suffer from DOMS when I lift KB. Barbells are a different matter. S and S, pull ups and skipping/crawling and I always feel I'm in the game so to speak..
ShawnM
Level 9 Valued Member
@conor78- Hop on YouTube and look up Modern Army Combatives and Marine Corps MCMAP training. the Marine Corp videos should give you a good idea. They really did a good job getting it together. They developed a belt system and they have to hit certain ranks before being able to advance in pay grade.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Looks like the MCMAP covers a lot more than physical MA, good stuff.
A while back I came across some of the Dog Brothers stuff, this short below is pretty good, all of their stuff is pretty street-minded and well presented. They really get into progression of the action and their Meets also make for good study too.
The Brachial stun at about 2 min in is a very handy technique. I used to sub it for ridge hand strikes when doing drills and had to stop as I could see the effect it had on my partners, even at low speed.
A while back I came across some of the Dog Brothers stuff, this short below is pretty good, all of their stuff is pretty street-minded and well presented. They really get into progression of the action and their Meets also make for good study too.
The Brachial stun at about 2 min in is a very handy technique. I used to sub it for ridge hand strikes when doing drills and had to stop as I could see the effect it had on my partners, even at low speed.
BCman
Level 6 Valued Member
When I watch different self defence videos, all the best ones emphasize very simple basic movement patterns, and techniques.
I think people forget the fact that once you get that adrenal dump from the intensity of the situation, you only have major motor movement skills, as the fine motor movements go out the window. And you literally get tunnel vision, where you can only see what's straight in front of you. Then if you have never trained in controlled breathing, which will help control the adrenal dump. You will burn out very fast, and then go into a state of shock, recognized by your hands and body shaking uncontrollably.
I think people in military combat, law enforcement and such, learn to deal with this, which is what separates them from the sport martial artist, that never gets into a REAL fight.
Al
I think people forget the fact that once you get that adrenal dump from the intensity of the situation, you only have major motor movement skills, as the fine motor movements go out the window. And you literally get tunnel vision, where you can only see what's straight in front of you. Then if you have never trained in controlled breathing, which will help control the adrenal dump. You will burn out very fast, and then go into a state of shock, recognized by your hands and body shaking uncontrollably.
I think people in military combat, law enforcement and such, learn to deal with this, which is what separates them from the sport martial artist, that never gets into a REAL fight.
Al
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
When I'm watching videos showing execution of various technique, I always pay most attention to the initial intercept. Everything that comes after that is entirely dependent on the first 1/2 second or so. If it looks like they needed too much compliance or recklessness from Uke, I tend to not keep watching. It might be significant from a "learning the art" perspective, but from a functional perspective is not much help.
Breathing is huge, as well as focus.
Again going back to my first instructor, he encouraged me to shift focus from opponents face/eyes to the junction of their neck/torso once you believe its for real. Combine this with some controlled breathing is a big help.
Looking at an angry face only increases the dump, and an experienced fighter might even look you off for a misdirection. If someone's a sucker, the added help of them maybe visually tipping you off is of little value anyway.
I was able to walk away from one confrontation where I would have been justified to preempt. I believe having controlled breathing and having my focus obviously shifted from his face to his throat kept the guy from taking a shot. I'd also stopped responding verbally.
Breathing is huge, as well as focus.
Again going back to my first instructor, he encouraged me to shift focus from opponents face/eyes to the junction of their neck/torso once you believe its for real. Combine this with some controlled breathing is a big help.
Looking at an angry face only increases the dump, and an experienced fighter might even look you off for a misdirection. If someone's a sucker, the added help of them maybe visually tipping you off is of little value anyway.
I was able to walk away from one confrontation where I would have been justified to preempt. I believe having controlled breathing and having my focus obviously shifted from his face to his throat kept the guy from taking a shot. I'd also stopped responding verbally.
- Status