Short Thoughts on Martial Arts I've Done

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dc

Level 6 Valued Member
But the idea that judo and similar people who wrestle full power for several hours a week suddenly become sheep in a real fight is amusing.
didn't say that, said they can get hit before they realise what's going on.
I don't want to say too much about the street fights, but I've found street fights very easy to win.

I totally agree with what you said about the importance of simple striking skills and of simply put: sadism, and also that anyone with a good punch is a deadly weapon. I think these are very important for real life encounters. I've definitely found untrained mean people though to be pretty useless, but not that I have been involved in enough self-defence situations to have a good sampling for statistical purposes! Now, a big exception was a bouncer I trained with once, and I'd say what he had learned from practical experience in bars was much better than what I could do. For instance, he trained in constantly pushing the guy's front away from him to the ground to make sure he couldn't do anything. This is more practical than the kind of wrestling training we do where we throw people (for safety reasons obviously) to their backs.

But the idea that judo and similar people who wrestle full power for several hours a week suddenly become sheep in a real fight is amusing.

My current judo coach was a bouncer in a well known local biker bar for over 20 years, hehehe.
I mean no disrespect @Kozushi but the start of this post sounds familiar, statements like that smell of inexperience to me. Sorry mate but you sound a lot like the martial artists I mentioned in an earlier post that walk around with a false sense of confidence. I'm sure you've trained in various MA for quite a few years & you sound very knowledgeable on the subject. But when it comes to SD some of the things you've said in some of your posts sound good in theory but don't add up to what I've experienced.
"Not that I've been involved in enough SD situations to have a good sampling for statistical purposes" this statement explains your first paragraph.
I understand that regular full contact sparring can give you self confidence especially if you do well, but it really is just a form of theory to the real thing. If you put 2 mma fighters in a cage & tell them to fight NHB & no rules you'll see a fight, put same 2 mma fighters in a cage & tell them the loser gets a bullet to the head you'll see a very different kind of fight. True fear & desperation can't be theorised or truly simulated.
Real life dangerous people don't often look like a trained up Van Damme, they usually look like Joe Pesci's character from the "Goodfellas", never trained a day in their life but they'll end yours in a heartbeat.
 
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Harry Westgate

Level 6 Valued Member
Love this. I'm on the commute to work at the moment but have more thoughts on this discussion which I shall hopefully share later on!!! :)
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
We all 'know a guy'...
I know this guy who was a very accomplished highly ranked MA. He got into it on the wrong side of town, ended up in the hospital, almost died, and has never been the same again. Didn't even get a chance with the other guys. Real fighting is deadly serious stuff...
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
My sister's boyfriend was a competitive judoka, got into it in a parking lot outside a club and rag-dolled his man with one throw to the pavement.

I also have a coworker who made it to brown belt in TKD back when he a teen-ager that is reputed capable of "clearing the room" in a bar-fight. We once swapped some fight stories and he also had a very close call getting kicked in the head after taking someone to the floor. "It was getting pretty dim, one more and it would have been lights-out" was how he described things after the second one landed.

The most ferocious traditionally trained martial artist I know has a younger brother that is nearly as tough in a fight as his older bro (in one fight with a traditionally trained karate practitioner he closed both the guy's eyes and had to be stopped from punting his man's head), and with zero MA training.

Training helps, experience helps, training + experience is better, luck is priceless.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
didn't say that, said they can get hit before they realise what's going on.
I mean no disrespect @Kozushi but the start of this post sounds familiar, statements like that smell of inexperience to me. Sorry mate but you sound a lot like the martial artists I mentioned in an earlier post that walk around with a false sense of confidence. I'm sure you've trained in various MA for quite a few years & you sound very knowledgeable on the subject. But when it comes to SD some of the things you've said in some of your posts sound good in theory but don't add up to what I've experienced.
"Not that I've been involved in enough SD situations to have a good sampling for statistical purposes" this statement explains your first paragraph.
I understand that regular full contact sparring can give you self confidence especially if you do well, but it really is just a form of theory to the real thing. If you put 2 mma fighters in a cage & tell them to fight NHB & no rules you'll see a fight, put same 2 mma fighters in a cage & tell them the loser gets a bullet to the head you'll see a very different kind of fight. True fear & desperation can't be theorised or truly simulated.
Real life dangerous people don't often look like a trained up Van Damme, they usually look like Joe Pesci's character from the "Goodfellas", never trained a day in their life but they'll end yours in a heartbeat.
I'm just as vulnerable a piece of meat as anyone else out there. We're all very vulnerable creatures, especially to weapons, even really small simple ones. I think you are 100% right about the sadism and desperation factoring in a lot to the equation. I don't know about being overconfident - I'm more like paranoid.

Sorry, I am not trying to insinuate I am some kind of fighting expert. I'm just enjoying the conversation. Writing is a blunt instrument and can easily give the wrong impression. I didn't even start this thread as a self-defence thread. I was only partially connecting martial arts with self-defence, actually. I'm sure you'd beat me in about under a second.

Yes, for sure, hired killers, hit men, experienced thugs, all have a huge advantage in terms of real violence. I totally agree.

A big part of self defence is staying away from trouble and also keeping with the right crowd, away from the wrong crowd.

Definitely the attacker has a huge advantage in terms of physical and psychological preparation as well as timing.

All I was trying to say was that if I'm going to do a martial art, it might as well be one that gives me some kind of hope in hell of winning a real fight if I'm ever in one.

A BJJ or Judo club is not a thug infested neighbourhood. God save me if I accidentally end up in one!!!
 
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dc

Level 6 Valued Member
My apologies @Kozushi if you felt I was picking a fight with you, that was not my intention. You are correct writing can be a blunt instrument, I to was just enjoying the conversation. You started this thread & I appreciate that as it has been enjoyable. T.I.P- Train In Peace.
 
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Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
My apologies @Kozushi if you felt I was picking a fight with you, that was not my intention. You are correct writing can be a blunt instrument, I to was just enjoying the conversation. You started this thread & I appreciate that as it has been enjoyable. T.I.P- Train In Peace.
If I was training with self-defence as my priority I would be training very differently, but frankly if I got into that kind of lifestyle I'd already be dead anyways. You're a remarkable person to have survived all of that, and you have apparently learned to write very well to boot! Congratulations on getting out of the bad stuff and educating yourself! Wow! I know some of my old training partners who are dead (not of natural causes), brain damaged (also not naturally), in jail for murder, and who had to run out of town to get away from things. They went the wrong way.

My self-defence is 1. heart health and weight control, 2. a steady job and a home in the suburbs, 3. staying away from bad people, 4. not harming anyone.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Gentlemen, thank you for keeping the tone of this civil. Speaking for myself, I've never been in a street fight and I hope never to be in one.

-S-
When I had started this thread I had forgotten that Martial Arts are supposed to be about self-defence. I think of them as interesting 1 on 1 sports using, generally speaking, minimal equipment and an interesting application of the strength we get through kettlebells and other weights. The self-defence stuff to me is just an added bonus.

However, I think the thrill of these kind of sports lies in their resemblance to fighting, even though it is toned down and chivalrous. Thus, when a fighting sport or martial art veers too far away from real fighting, its appeal lessens for me. (I may have had enough for a little while of BJJ for example - it's great but I don't want to train myself to fall on my back , EVER.) Part of the reason too is of course the back of my mind thinking about self-defence, but the major reason is I want the excitement of a sportive 'fight' and not just a game. What I get out of judo is the same that the medievalists get out of their tournaments. It's a thrill!

Real fighting ought to have no place at all in a civilized society.
 
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Harry Westgate

Level 6 Valued Member
When it comes to self defence, as others have touched on, I think the best thing one can do is not go looking for trouble. Trouble has a way of finding those who go looking for it.

The few scraps I've been in has always involved individuals who go looking for trouble, but have no idea what to do when they find it.

While I am by no means invincible, I like to think that I have some idea of what to do when such trouble finds me; I can throw quality punches, move well, and have the self confidence that comes from being in good shape.

An example of the above occurred on Boxing Day (Ha!) last year when a friend of mine - who I see far less of these days due to incidents like this happening one too many times - went looking for trouble. We were both very drunk at the time, yet I had the presence of mind to know that this reduced my fighting ability and general awareness.

My friend, like so many times before this particular occasion, decided to look for trouble. I don't know quite how it started, but I turned around looking for where he had gone (outside a club), and there he was squaring up with someone. I went over and asked what the hell was going on, and then the guy my friend was squaring up to socked me and my friend in the mouth before I realised what was going on. Never did I realise that a blow to the head could actually sober you up a bit... But suddenly the situation became clearer, and I was raging.

The guy who punched us then bolted, and we both ran after him, and there, 10 metres away, were five or six of his friends running at us.

Sh!t.

Two of us; six or seven of them. Nothing can really prepare you for that. Luckily these guys clearly had no idea what they were doing, as they were just sort of throwing weak kicks at our legs and wild haymakers.

My friend took another couple of hits (again, he didn't know what to do having found trouble), while I managed to catch a kick, leaving the guy on one leg, then kicked his standing leg out from under him, resulting in him on the ground. I then proceeded to beat three or four of the others to the punch with 1-2s to the nose/mouth. Then a police car appeared not too far from us all, and I shouted to alert my friend of the police presence as I turned to leg it, yet he was still stood like a human punch bag shouting abuse at our assailants.

Therefore, I ran back to grab him, span him to face me, slapped him across the face, and dragged him away, and we ran a mile. No way was I getting arrested for him. I don't think I've ever ran so fast in my life.

Luckily there were no real consequences from this incident, apart from a bleeding lip for me, and a few bruises to the face of my friend.

Like I say though, one needs to be mindful of who they hang around with and where they go. Most problems can be avoided if this guideline is adhered to.

Also, regarding self defence techniques, I don't give a sh!t what anyone says, stand up striking is your number one priority (even more than stand up grappling). If you land the first punch, as well as the second and third, you've probably already won. Luckily, in the above story, the fool who struck me first didn't follow it up. If he had, who knows if I'd still be here telling the story.

With this in mind, if in doubt, learn boxing or Muay Thai/kickboxing.

Don't get too drunk/avoid conflict when drunk.

If there are more of them than you, swallow your pride and run.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
When it comes to self defence, as others have touched on, I think the best thing one can do is not go looking for trouble. Trouble has a way of finding those who go looking for it.

The few scraps I've been in has always involved individuals who go looking for trouble, but have no idea what to do when they find it.

While I am by no means invincible, I like to think that I have some idea of what to do when such trouble finds me; I can throw quality punches, move well, and have the self confidence that comes from being in good shape.

An example of the above occurred on Boxing Day (Ha!) last year when a friend of mine - who I see far less of these days due to incidents like this happening one too many times - went looking for trouble. We were both very drunk at the time, yet I had the presence of mind to know that this reduced my fighting ability and general awareness.

My friend, like so many times before this particular occasion, decided to look for trouble. I don't know quite how it started, but I turned around looking for where he had gone (outside a club), and there he was squaring up with someone. I went over and asked what the hell was going on, and then the guy my friend was squaring up to socked me and my friend in the mouth before I realised what was going on. Never did I realise that a blow to the head could actually sober you up a bit... But suddenly the situation became clearer, and I was raging.

The guy who punched us then bolted, and we both ran after him, and there, 10 metres away, were five or six of his friends running at us.

Sh!t.

Two of us; six or seven of them. Nothing can really prepare you for that. Luckily these guys clearly had no idea what they were doing, as they were just sort of throwing weak kicks at our legs and wild haymakers.

My friend took another couple of hits (again, he didn't know what to do having found trouble), while I managed to catch a kick, leaving the guy on one leg, then kicked his standing leg out from under him, resulting in him on the ground. I then proceeded to beat three or four of the others to the punch with 1-2s to the nose/mouth. Then a police car appeared not too far from us all, and I shouted to alert my friend of the police presence as I turned to leg it, yet he was still stood like a human punch bag shouting abuse at our assailants.

Therefore, I ran back to grab him, span him to face me, slapped him across the face, and dragged him away, and we ran a mile. No way was I getting arrested for him. I don't think I've ever ran so fast in my life.

Luckily there were no real consequences from this incident, apart from a bleeding lip for me, and a few bruises to the face of my friend.

Like I say though, one needs to be mindful of who they hang around with and where they go. Most problems can be avoided if this guideline is adhered to.

Also, regarding self defence techniques, I don't give a sh!t what anyone says, stand up striking is your number one priority (even more than stand up grappling). If you land the first punch, as well as the second and third, you've probably already won. Luckily, in the above story, the fool who struck me first didn't follow it up. If he had, who knows if I'd still be here telling the story.

With this in mind, if in doubt, learn boxing or Muay Thai/kickboxing.

Don't get too drunk/avoid conflict when drunk.

If there are more of them than you, swallow your pride and run.
It sounds like your friend needs a combat sport to do since he enjoys fighting.

Something you wrote there reminds me how the 'bad guys' think they're a lot tougher than they really are. They are just as vulnerable as any other human being. In fights in our town between the suburban kids taking hockey and gymnastics lessons, and who eat well, and the inner city kids who play no sports and don't eat well, it's the suburban kids who win pretty much all the time. Mind you I live in Canada where killing people isn't so 'in' and the inner cities here are probably like suburbs in the USA in terms of 'toughness' hahaha!

Standup grappling in a street fight is not like in MMA or a match. It's an instantaneous smash down onto the pavement. I'm not speaking from inexperience in this regard. But it isn't learned overnight, and certainly nowhere as fast as learning striking. Stand up grappling training also trains you to keep your balance and to avoid being tripped or taken down to the ground. But I agree with you, standup striking has to be the most important and dangerous or lethal consideration for real street fighting without weapons.

Anyhow, just to reiterate, while not without experience in the matter at hand unfortunately, I claim no special knowledge in the area of self-defence fighting, and I'm glad I don't!!! ...Just talking theory and about experiences people have had with it. Doing martial arts for 30 years often training with law enforcement personnel, inner city inhabitants and such (well, I lived in the inner city for many years myself, hahaha!) you hear about a lot of things.

In my city, people definitely do get beaten to death on the street or even at restaurants, even mini-put and such. This kind of threat is definitely on my mind and I do consider my training to be worth it for this reason (and it has been a probable life saver on a few occasions for me and some family members). Again, the kind of hard-core criminality that DC writes about - I wouldn't survive that though!!!
 
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