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Should EVERY rep look the same?

I like the idea that all reps should look the same and generally I think it's true.

The caveats or exceptions, some of which are mentioned in your video @Boris Bachmann or by others:
  • Physics can change the angles, as the weight gets heavier. (best example: a heavy barbell squat)
  • Technique changes as you get stronger. Therefore, reps today may look different from reps a year ago.
  • Technique changes as you become better, or more skilled, or just decide to use a different technique. Therefore, reps today may look different from reps a year ago.
  • Warm-up reps may be intentionally used as mobility. For example, first set of squats, move around a bit at the bottom of the rep, push the knees out sort of like a prying goblet squat, or good morning it a bit, or put more arch in the back. In this way you're using the warm-up to "warm up" a bigger range of motion that may come into play with heavier sets, if needed (and may help find the ideal groove by finding the edges, if that makes sense).
  • Sometimes speed is increased for lighter weights, intentionally for rate of force development, or to put focus on speed that can then be used as an intention to move the weight faster when it's heavier even if it doesn't comply.
But other than that, I think it's generally a good idea to practice the same technique with all reps.

Olympic Lifter are the Poster Children for Technique Training.
Agree. As weightlifting coach Danny Casey told me (paraphrasing from my notes of our conversation): "Heavy tends to send technique out the window, but shouldn't be like that (and won't be, with experience). Technique is absolute in weightlifting. It's how you move the weight. Technique is the optimization of natural mechanics. You have to move the bar in space, and your body around the bar. If you let heavy make you do things differently, you're negating that optimization of mechanics. The goal is to perfect how you move. The weight on the bar is a measure of your ability to maintain that. Lift with intention with every weight "How you do anything is how you do everything." Every single thing you do should be purposeful. Make like movements as similar as possible."
 
Back when I taught at the calistenics gym, I often saw many students holding themselves back becuase they thought they couldn't progress unless their form was absolutely perfect. There are a lot of folks in the bodyweight field that hyper-focus on form instead of just cranking out reps and getting stronger. Sometimes form is important, sometimes not as much.

I think there is nuance, depending on what the exercise/training modality is, but there are some exercises where I think form is less important. Sometimes form is extremely important, other times I think you can get away with just cranking on the weight (as long as it feels okay, obviously). Comparing olympic lifting to bodyweight exercise, for example. One can do pullups and pushups a hundred different ways with little to no consequence, but not so when it comes to the Olympic lifts. An example that comes to mind is the Chinese Olympic team. Many of us have seen all the videos of their lifting form and technique, but the videos of their supplementary work (hypertrophy, "condidtioning" etc) such as handstand pushups, dips, dumbbell rows.. . .? I think some of personal trainers would have some comments to make if they saw some random person in the gym doing it that way. I could be wrong, I guess....

Here's Lu. How many of us would be tempted to correct someone if they submitted form check videos for these rows and dips? There's quite a bit of, shall we say, "body english" going on.


 
Back when I taught at the calistenics gym, I often saw many students holding themselves back becuase they thought they couldn't progress unless their form was absolutely perfect. There are a lot of folks in the bodyweight field that hyper-focus on form instead of just cranking out reps and getting stronger. Sometimes form is important, sometimes not as much.
Perfect is sometimes the enemy of good.

I used to get a lot questions from people that would not want to squat more than the empty bar or dowel/PVC until things were perfect.
 
Perfect is sometimes the enemy of good.

I used to get a lot questions from people that would not want to squat more than the empty bar or dowel/PVC until things were perfect.
Agree, there's no reason to perfect form before adding weight, and many people hold themselves back WAY too much. Often times we are scaring the wrong people when we say something like people should work on form before adding weight. We may be talking to the high schoolers who are maxing out before they even know what they are doing, but the people who are listening are the over-cautious ones who are, for the most part, doing it just fine and should progress the weight. Then they are the ones who hold back and get obsessive about form.

I used to define variables in my head for a movement:
A: "perfect", or as perfect as I personally could ever get to perfect in my "final form"
B: as close to A as I can do right now with my current strength, mobility, and movement skill, with coaching and cuing
C: as close to A or B as I can get right now without someone watching and cuing me
D: as close to C as I can get today with today not being optimal (or C with a lack of consistency)
E: my first attempts at something before I even know what A-D are

So on any given day, once you've moved past E to D, you're doing D on a regular basis, trying to be C and/or B, which ideally would be aimed at A. If I'm striving for C it's me trying to do something as well as I know how to do it. If I'm striving for B I'm trying to do something a coach has told me to do; perhaps, work on corrections or technique changes, or fixing flaws that have been observed. So that's similar, but sometimes a little different. Striving for A isn't usually the best idea because there are developmental steps along the way, but A should always serve as a beacon to aim for.
 
Perfect is sometimes the enemy of good.

I used to get a lot questions from people that would not want to squat more than the empty bar or dowel/PVC until things were perfect.
I don't think I'm alone in saying this, but adding weight not only can change your form, but it can often help it. I think the legitimate cases of waiting to add weight past a pvc pipe or empty bar are a whole heck of a lot rarer than most would think.

Take these photos of Klokov for instance:
From a now somewhat-infamous assessment video...
1684795469969.jpeg

And with weight...
1684795572275.jpeg

Clearly when I wrote "adding weight" above I was not necesarrily saying hundreds of pounds ;)

I guess mentioning the use of the goblet squat in S&S is also worthwhile. Addind an anterior load is a great way to get people to feel what a squat feels like, if the are otherwise struggling.
 
I like the idea that all reps should look the same and generally I think it's true.

The caveats or exceptions, some of which are mentioned in your video @Boris Bachmann or by others:
  • Physics can change the angles, as the weight gets heavier. (best example: a heavy barbell squat)
  • Technique changes as you get stronger. Therefore, reps today may look different from reps a year ago.
  • Technique changes as you become better, or more skilled, or just decide to use a different technique. Therefore, reps today may look different from reps a year ago.
  • Warm-up reps may be intentionally used as mobility. For example, first set of squats, move around a bit at the bottom of the rep, push the knees out sort of like a prying goblet squat, or good morning it a bit, or put more arch in the back. In this way you're using the warm-up to "warm up" a bigger range of motion that may come into play with heavier sets, if needed (and may help find the ideal groove by finding the edges, if that makes sense).
  • Sometimes speed is increased for lighter weights, intentionally for rate of force development, or to put focus on speed that can then be used as an intention to move the weight faster when it's heavier even if it doesn't comply.
But other than that, I think it's generally a good idea to practice the same technique with all reps.


Agree. As weightlifting coach Danny Casey told me (paraphrasing from my notes of our conversation): "Heavy tends to send technique out the window, but shouldn't be like that (and won't be, with experience). Technique is absolute in weightlifting. It's how you move the weight. Technique is the optimization of natural mechanics. You have to move the bar in space, and your body around the bar. If you let heavy make you do things differently, you're negating that optimization of mechanics. The goal is to perfect how you move. The weight on the bar is a measure of your ability to maintain that. Lift with intention with every weight "How you do anything is how you do everything." Every single thing you do should be purposeful. Make like movements as similar as possible."

In general I very much agree.

But speed is an interesting point you bring up that I didn't remember in my earlier post.

Personally, I don't typically think in terms of velocity, but of effort. When we get to real warm-up sets, where it's just ramping up the load, I always like to see and perform maximal effort with every rep. Maximal effort is part of every rep being the same. Thus, with every rep, the bar moves as fast as possible for the given load.

To be clear, I see value in doing things like pause squats in the beginning of a squat session, prying the hips open with some load on the back etc. It's typically, rightly, called warm-up, but I separate them from the "real" warm-up sets I mentioned earlier on, which are the ones done when everything is grooving and we're just going up to get to the working set loads.
 
I don't think I'm alone in saying this, but adding weight not only can change your form, but it can often help it. I think the legitimate cases of waiting to add weight past a pvc pipe or empty bar are a whole heck of a lot rarer than most would think.

Take these photos of Klokov for instance:
From a now somewhat-infamous assessment video...
View attachment 21440

And with weight...
View attachment 21441

Clearly when I wrote "adding weight" above I was not necesarrily saying hundreds of pounds ;)

I guess mentioning the use of the goblet squat in S&S is also worthwhile. Addind an anterior load is a great way to get people to feel what a squat feels like, if the are otherwise struggling.
What is "infamous" about the video?
I've seen it refered to as Klokov "failing" the FMS DS but alI I know from that picture is he might not be a three on the DS—that is all.

RE: every rep being the same
Yes and no

Training Observations: Every Rep Is a Chance to Learn | StrongFirst

The Difference Between the Reps​

One of my favorite training sessions at the moment is Strength Aerobics. More on what that is and how I keep it interesting later, but for now the “thing” I have observed most in using Strength Aerobics is the “difference between the reps.” This ties into something known as movement variability.

From Feldenkrais professional and author Todd Hargrove’s blog:

“The ability to make small adjustments to a basic repetitive pattern like heart rate, brain waves, energy use and movement seems to be a good indicator of health and function. Experts who perform the same repetitive task (say hammering a nail) display more variability than novices…”
And:

“Good movement is not just about harmonious interaction or coordination between the different parts of the body. It is most fundamentally about how the system interacts with the environment, particularly in response to unexpected changes. In other words, good movement implies a quality of adaptability and responsiveness to a changing environment.”
What I find in doing Strength Aerobics, or many of my other sessions, is a difference between the reps. One clean of the kettlebell will land “just so.” And then next will land “just not so.” This creates small variations in the angles and center of mass of the kettlebell for the press to follow.

One swing will pop and float to a certain level with a tug on my callouses due to being ever so slightly out of sync on that rep, while the next rep is perfectly in sync. One get-up will feel perfectly aligned and the next rep I have to take advantage of a pause to find the alignment.

Movement variability and the difference between the reps is not only to be expected it is a good thing.


Obviously Strength Aerobics was built out into the Iron Cardio protocol etc.

Golfers and and other athletes try to repeat "the same movement" (think driving the ball off the tee) but have variability in the action/movement(s).
So while the goal may be to reproduce the same movement there will be variability.
 
Re velocity, the lift at some point becomes a different exercise entirely.
This is something that becomes apparent when doing jumping backsquats or even doing rapid fire isometrics opposed to a slower sustained effort - the firing sequence can change quite a bit.
 
What is "infamous" about the video?
I've seen it refered to as Klokov "failing" the FMS DS but alI I know from that picture is he might not be a three on the DS—that is all.

RE: every rep being the same
Yes and no

Training Observations: Every Rep Is a Chance to Learn | StrongFirst

The Difference Between the Reps​

One of my favorite training sessions at the moment is Strength Aerobics. More on what that is and how I keep it interesting later, but for now the “thing” I have observed most in using Strength Aerobics is the “difference between the reps.” This ties into something known as movement variability.

From Feldenkrais professional and author Todd Hargrove’s blog:


And:


What I find in doing Strength Aerobics, or many of my other sessions, is a difference between the reps. One clean of the kettlebell will land “just so.” And then next will land “just not so.” This creates small variations in the angles and center of mass of the kettlebell for the press to follow.

One swing will pop and float to a certain level with a tug on my callouses due to being ever so slightly out of sync on that rep, while the next rep is perfectly in sync. One get-up will feel perfectly aligned and the next rep I have to take advantage of a pause to find the alignment.

Movement variability and the difference between the reps is not only to be expected it is a good thing.


Obviously Strength Aerobics was built out into the Iron Cardio protocol etc.

Golfers and and other athletes try to repeat "the same movement" (think driving the ball off the tee) but have variability in the action/movement(s).
So while the goal may be to reproduce the same movement there will be variability.
Good points and well said. I recall the same feelings when I would do hundreds of reps of kettlebell swing or kettlebell snatch in A+A sessions. You somewhat "make friends" with the movement variability... the reps get to be so dialed in that you can then fine tune and really start to study the relationship between intent and result, understanding what is random, what is related to external forces, and what is related to internal factors. I find myself wishing for sessions like that with the barbell... but unfortunately there is no way I can do dozens (much less hundreds) of snatches, cleans, jerks in a session in order to find what I did with kettlebell A+A. The only option then is to stretch this experience out over many years in order to get to that point of mastery with weightlifting. 3.5 years in I feel like I'm only about a third of the way down that road... In fact, I might say that the intent to make all reps the same serves me better with weightlifting than it did when I was working with the kettlebell for so long, because right now I'm just always farther away from the ability to actually do it.
 
I don't think I'm alone in saying this, but adding weight not only can change your form, but it can often help it.
Technique Training

Technique Training is developed by focusing on each Repetition from the Warm Up to the Top Reps Set with the same Correct Form.

Adding Weight Changing Technique

If adding weight Changes Technique, it reinforce Poor Technique. Doing that is counter productive.

The Benefit of Technique Breakdown

The only value of increasing the weight loading to the point of where it Technique Breakdown is the you find out what the Weak Link is in the movement.

When the Weak Links is determined, it allows to focus on it.

This where "It can help".

When To Increase And Decrease The Loading

This is similar to playing a High-Low Game.

1) Start out with a Light Load that allows to perform it with Good Technique.

I not a fan of using PVC Pipe.

2) Progresively and Incrementally increase the Loading.

3) Increased the Load to where your Techinique is altered to Poor Form.

Use this to define the Weak Link in the Chains that you need to address; which muscle/muscles are the the Weak Link and need to be strengthened with Auxiliary Exericise.

Then...

4) Decrease the Loading in the Movcement down to where you are performing it with Good Technique.

Maintain this Training Load on your Technique Training Day, during the Periodization Training Cycle in conjunction with your Auxiliary Exercise for your Weak Link.

After that Periodization Training Cycle, Then...

4) Increase the Technique Training Load.

If you are able to maintain Good Technique with the Increased Load, that indicates that your Weak Link Auxiliary Exercise was effective.

If you perform the Movement with Poor Technique, you either did not correctly determine you Weak Link or the Auxiliary Exercise didn't address it.

Incorrect Weak Link Assessment Example

Turning a Squat into a Good Morning Squat is often a misassessment issue.

It's Not A Back Issue

Many incorrectly believe that it is an indication of a Weak Back.

That incorrect assessment leads to individuals implementing more Back Training; which exacerbates that issue.

It Is A Quad Issue

The Good Morning Squat usually occurs with individuals who have Weak Quads and a Strong Back.

The Load is more than Quads can handle.

Once Quad Drive slows down or stops, the Load is shifted to the Stronger Back; produceing a "Morning Squat."

This a metaphrorically a survival response; doing whatever it takes to get the Squat up.

The Solution

Strength Training Movements that OverLoad the Quads and minimizing the Lower Back.

Belt Squat, Step Ups, Bulgarian Split Squats, Leg Presses, Trap Bar Deadlifts, etc.
 
Re velocity, the lift at some point becomes a different exercise entirely.
Different Training Percentages

To some extent, Different Training Percentage change the Muscle Firing Sequence; which does make it a different exercise.

Dr Greg Nuckols article (Post) examined this with the Muscle Involvement in the Squat and Bench Press with Different Training Percentages.

Velocity Muscle Fiber Training

Speed and Power Explosive Movement innervate and develop more of the "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber.

Slower Heavy Movement tend to work more of the "Strength" Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

This research examine this in...

A Comparison of Strength and PowerCharacteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters
Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 1999, 13(1), 58–66q 1999 National Strength & Conditioning Association
 
Adding Weight Changing Technique

If adding weight Changes Technique, it reinforce Poor Technique. Doing that is counter productive.
This misses an important point - when learning a new movement, after a certain minimal proficiency is achieved with a light weight, adding weight will be instructive because it will require better technique. This point isn't relevant to an intermediate or above level lifter, but for a not-brand-new-but-still-somewhat-new combination of lifter and movement, it's an important point to remember when teaching, IMO.

-S-
 
What is "infamous" about the video?
I've seen it refered to as Klokov "failing" the FMS DS but alI I know from that picture is he might not be a three on the DS—that is all.
Ahh, maybe “infamous” was a poor descriptor. I’ve just seen the comparison between that photo/video and photos/videos of klokov doing actual lifts made on social media to make points about loading movements.

If adding weight Changes Technique, it reinforce Poor Technique. Doing that is counter productive.
If it makes technique worse, yes. But if it makes technique worse, then imo it’s just too much load. The example I gave was goblet squats though. I was talking more about learning or improving a movement, not exerting max strength. Some people can’t squat well without load, at least initially. When I said “add load” in this context, I clearly said “not a lot of load.” Load gives feedback to the body, which Steve made a point of above. Using light to moderate load can help, depending on the situation.

Using squatting as an example: if someone newer to it can’t squat very deep, it can be instructive to use load and other constraints (such as anterior loading and elevating the heels) so they can experience what a good squat pattern feels like. The more they are exposed to it over time, the easier they will be able to do it without those constraints at a later point in time.
 
What is "infamous" about the video?
I've seen it refered to as Klokov "failing" the FMS DS but alI I know from that picture is he might not be a three on the DS—that is all.

RE: every rep being the same
Yes and no

Training Observations: Every Rep Is a Chance to Learn | StrongFirst

The Difference Between the Reps​

One of my favorite training sessions at the moment is Strength Aerobics. More on what that is and how I keep it interesting later, but for now the “thing” I have observed most in using Strength Aerobics is the “difference between the reps.” This ties into something known as movement variability.

From Feldenkrais professional and author Todd Hargrove’s blog:


And:


What I find in doing Strength Aerobics, or many of my other sessions, is a difference between the reps. One clean of the kettlebell will land “just so.” And then next will land “just not so.” This creates small variations in the angles and center of mass of the kettlebell for the press to follow.

One swing will pop and float to a certain level with a tug on my callouses due to being ever so slightly out of sync on that rep, while the next rep is perfectly in sync. One get-up will feel perfectly aligned and the next rep I have to take advantage of a pause to find the alignment.

Movement variability and the difference between the reps is not only to be expected it is a good thing.


Obviously Strength Aerobics was built out into the Iron Cardio protocol etc.

Golfers and and other athletes try to repeat "the same movement" (think driving the ball off the tee) but have variability in the action/movement(s).
So while the goal may be to reproduce the same movement there will be variability.
Good points and well said. I recall the same feelings when I would do hundreds of reps of kettlebell swing or kettlebell snatch in A+A sessions. You somewhat "make friends" with the movement variability... the reps get to be so dialed in that you can then fine tune and really start to study the relationship between intent and result, understanding what is random, what is related to external forces, and what is related to internal factors. I find myself wishing for sessions like that with the barbell... but unfortunately there is no way I can do dozens (much less hundreds) of snatches, cleans, jerks in a session in order to find what I did with kettlebell A+A. The only option then is to stretch this experience out over many years in order to get to that point of mastery with weightlifting. 3.5 years in I feel like I'm only about a third of the way down that road... In fact, I might say that the intent to make all reps the same serves me better with weightlifting than it did when I was working with the kettlebell for so long, because right now I'm just always farther away from the ability to actually do it.

When it comes to technique training, I wonder how much exactly the # of reps in a session and their close proximity influences it.

As extreme examples, let's compare a session where one does singles with a heavy barbell with five minutes rest, to a kettlebell session with a 30 minute continuous session with timed, short rests. Maybe the kettlebell session even ends up being too long for the task, but still.

Personally, I've grown to really enjoy and develop from the Westside style dynamic effort training. A triple or double on the minute for ten minutes or so. Plenty of first reps, plenty of chances to develop, the previous set and rep always fresh on my mind, my body still reasonably fresh.

As we train, it's not just performing the movement, it's about improving the movement. So even if every rep should look the same, I suppose I'd rather say that one should try to improve on every rep. Typically, it takes experimentation, however slight.
 
when learning a new movement, after a certain minimal proficiency is achieved with a light weight, adding weight will be instructive because it will require better technique.
Techinique

The Technique proficiency with a Light Load need be be achieved before moving increasing he load.

Proficiency doesn't get it.

An individual who not performing the Movement with a Lighter Load is going to become better with the Heavier Loadd.
 
I was talking more about learning or improving a movement, not exerting max strength.
Technique Training Pecentages

Research show that a load of 85% plus is optimal for developing Technique.

Exerting Max Strength in the Movement is counter productive in a Weekly Training Program; it physically and mentally drain you.

As with all sports, the objective is to simulate Meet or Contest Condition without burning out.

Metal Burn Out.

A great example is football game when the two national conders played each other, Univeristy of Texas played Oklahoma.

It was a dog fight with Texas winning.

The following week, Texas played a lower ranked competitor, Arkansas.

The announer stated it should be an easy game for Texas.

Ara Parseghian, the color commentatory, stated that Texas would have a hard time winning the game.

As per, Parseghian it takes around 10 days to mentally recover from hard games. Which is exactly what happened. Texas barely won.

..."If you push yourself hard ever workout, "You freak you mind out"...mentally and emotionally burn out."
 
Yes... definitely influences it.

With weightlifting we throw in the variable of weight changes within the session. Whereas with kettlebell sessions like S&S or A+A, other than perhaps a few sets or reps with a lighter weight, we often do the whole session with one weight.

For instance, 10 x 10 1H kettlebell swings with 24kg (S&S), or 30 repeats of 5 kettlebell snatches with 24 kg (A+A).
So that's 100 reps or 150 reps I get to do in the session, all with the same weight.

In contrast, with weightlifting, it's usually something like (from my training log 4/5/23):
Snatch: barx3, 25x3, 30x3, 35x3, 38x2, 41x2, 44x1x5.
So that's triples, then doubles, then 5 singles at 44. Not including the bar, that's only 18 reps I get to do in a session for that movement, and it's at 6 different weights. Definitely a challenge to find consistency of movement. But that's what I'm striving for.
 
Take these photos of Klokov for instance:
From a now somewhat-infamous assessment video...
1684795469969.jpeg


And with weight...
1684795572275.jpeg

@bluejeff, I'm no world-class athlete like Klokov, but I had a similar experience at the first Easy Strength seminar. I don't know exactly what year this was but the book was published, according to amazon.com, in November of 2011, so probably around that time.

We were doing stations, which was Dan's suggestion for how one might train a group. I was at the deadlift station and there were perhaps six or eight of us, and the idea was that you got enough rest while the other people did their lift (in this case, the deadlift). The weights started light and went up gradually. The weights started really light, probably went something like 135 lb, then 185 lb, then 225, and so on. Pavel T. called me over after watching one or two of my deadlifts with these light weights, and he said my deadlift form wasn't good. My response was "I never deadlift less than 225 lbs". He smiled, and when he watched me DL 225, he smiled again. (FWIW, I now I start with 125 kg which is 275 lbs as a rule (bar, 2 reds, clamps) but once in a while, if a cycle's plan calls for me to start light, I go back to 115 kg (bar, a red and a blue, and clamps, which is 253 lb.)

Again, I'm not Klokov, but if you don't practice with very light weights, you might not know what to do with them. (Since teaching more and more, I have made it a point to demonstrate good form with lighter weights so that I can demonstrate with whatever weight is on the bar for my student to lift.

-S-
 
@bluejeff, I'm no world-class athlete like Klokov, but I had a similar experience at the first Easy Strength seminar. I don't know exactly what year this was but the book was published, according to amazon.com, in November of 2011, so probably around that time.

We were doing stations, which was Dan's suggestion for how one might train a group. I was at the deadlift station and there were perhaps six or eight of us, and the idea was that you got enough rest while the other people did their lift (in this case, the deadlift). The weights started light and went up gradually. The weights started really light, probably went something like 135 lb, then 185 lb, then 225, and so on. Pavel T. called me over after watching one or two of my deadlifts with these light weights, and he said my deadlift form wasn't good. My response was "I never deadlift less than 225 lbs". He smiled, and when he watched me DL 225, he smiled again. (FWIW, I now I start with 125 kg which is 275 lbs as a rule (bar, 2 reds, clamps) but once in a while, if a cycle's plan calls for me to start light, I go back to 115 kg (bar, a red and a blue, and clamps, which is 253 lb.)

Again, I'm not Klokov, but if you don't practice with very light weights, you might not know what to do with them. (Since teaching more and more, I have made it a point to demonstrate good form with lighter weights so that I can demonstrate with whatever weight is on the bar for my student to lift.

-S-

The form can't be the same with light weights, it's apparent with the deadlift. Wedging myself between the bar and the ground is super important, and when I'm wedging the bar gets off the ground with loads up to past 300lbs. Maybe closer to 400lbs the bar just bends, or I coil more.
 
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