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Barbell Should we put a cap on our strength?

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Consider Dan John and his quadrant theory. We are all Q3. Lots of qualities, minimum level. Don't be weak in any of the major qualities like strength, power, flexibility, mobility, balance, agility, coordination, etc. Don't lose one at the expense of another. Work on your weaknesses.

Personal goals of course may dictate training of some qualities over another - Personally based on my athletic hobbies I value maximizing power > pure strength, and more specifically power endurance > maximum power - but I still want to be good in both (and all) those categories since they all intertwine.
 
Just to throw out a slightly different opinion than the general vibe here... I know this is a gross generalization, but I postulate that anything which is truly competitive - be it powerlifting, sports, aesthetics, whatever - is not necessarily "healthy". Competitors are always looking for the limit of their abilities, which is inherently a risk to their health. Pavel T wrote an article to this effect. And it's not just a matter of competing against others - some people have an innate desire to be better than they were yesterday, even if they are nowhere near the upper echelons of their sport.

Not everybody is a competitor - nor should they be. Some folks are great at finding their zen and just enjoying whatever they are doing, and not caring how they fare this year vs. the next. It's great if you can do that, more power to you.

I consider myself fortunate to always be hungry to do better. Sometimes, it's glorious. Some days I jump out of the sand and hit the volleyball so hard that the kid half my age on the other side of the court just has to duck out of the way, and I get to ride that little wave of euphoria for a couple days. And yup, sometimes it's not so glorious, and I hurt myself. I credit StrongFirst with showing me a lot of ways to be smarter and do that less. I completely agree that most of us need to focus on covering our weaknesses rather than over-developing one attribute, but I enjoy finding/pushing my limits.

Maybe I won't be able to carry this attitude into my old age, as I have to shift focus from improvement to the fight against decline... but in the words of Prince Vultan (Flash Gordon), "ah well... who wants to live forever?!"
 
Just to throw out a slightly different opinion than the general vibe here... I know this is a gross generalization, but I postulate that anything which is truly competitive - be it powerlifting, sports, aesthetics, whatever - is not necessarily "healthy". Competitors are always looking for the limit of their abilities, which is inherently a risk to their health. Pavel T wrote an article to this effect. And it's not just a matter of competing against others - some people have an innate desire to be better than they were yesterday, even if they are nowhere near the upper echelons of their sport.

Not everybody is a competitor - nor should they be. Some folks are great at finding their zen and just enjoying whatever they are doing, and not caring how they fare this year vs. the next. It's great if you can do that, more power to you.

I consider myself fortunate to always be hungry to do better. Sometimes, it's glorious. Some days I jump out of the sand and hit the volleyball so hard that the kid half my age on the other side of the court just has to duck out of the way, and I get to ride that little wave of euphoria for a couple days. And yup, sometimes it's not so glorious, and I hurt myself. I credit StrongFirst with showing me a lot of ways to be smarter and do that less. I completely agree that most of us need to focus on covering our weaknesses rather than over-developing one attribute, but I enjoy finding/pushing my limits.

Maybe I won't be able to carry this attitude into my old age, as I have to shift focus from improvement to the fight against decline... but in the words of Prince Vultan (Flash Gordon), "ah well... who wants to live forever?!"

I just watched Westide vs the World few days ago. They had clearly acknowledged that they were daily trading between current success and future health or length of life. Obviously this is an extreme example, with their methods including drugs etc. But then, when you think at what age Simmons himself was still competing and compare that to all who are sedentary even when younger, it’s really not that obvious.
 
I consider myself fortunate to always be hungry to do better.
Amen! Get busy living or get busy dying. If you're not getting stronger/faster, you're getting weaker/slower. It's all a race against the clock; you'll only be able to get stronger/faster for so long and then it's just slowing the rate of decline. How high you make it up the mountain before you start the decent will determine a lot about what's possible later on.
 
Amen! Get busy living or get busy dying. If you're not getting stronger/faster, you're getting weaker/slower. It's all a race against the clock; you'll only be able to get stronger/faster for so long and then it's just slowing the rate of decline. How high you make it up the mountain before you start the decent will determine a lot about what's possible later on.

Agreed! For some better means stronger, for some it means mobility, speed or something else!
 
It seems to me that you can continuously strive to improve without much danger of hurting yourself. There are principles and you need to have a good understanding of them and you need to have some sense of self preservation. Most of this comes naturally after you beat yourself into oblivion at first. If you can't learn how to not hurt yourself in several years time it seems to me you aren't taking it seriously enough anyway to get really strong. Plan the work, work the plan could not be more appropriate.
 
I've had this debate in my mind for some time. When strength training, do we as humans reach a point where trying to get stronger will lead to smaller gains while the risk of injury increases significantly? For example, I could do a strength program like PTTP or SS and take my deadlift to 500-550lbs. That's definitely impressive and I think we can all agree that a person that can lift +500lbs is strong. But would trying to reach +600lbs be advisable for someone who does not compete?

In other words, should we limit our strength in order to increase injury prevention? I realize that getting strong is a form of injury... but how strong is strong enough?

Interesting question, i reckon the level you can attain will be automatically limited by the time and effort available to you to train for it and so for the average joe you will be limited to a certain standard because you just dont have the time/energy available to do more work to get to the next level where as a professional can dedicate a lot more time/energy and get to a much higher level as is needed. Both people reach a level they need, so average joe then trying to train like a professional and put in that level of training time and effort whilst doing all the pther things in life that are demanding like work/kids etc. is very likely to overreach and not be able to recover setting themselves up for injuries and massive fatigue and so for them the point of diminishing returns will be lower than the professional who is able to treat training as their job and eat/rest suitably.
 
I have really never even touched a barbell, but I have been thinking about this quite a lot recently. I’m at timeless simple and I train for health, to keep back problems away and to give my golf game a bit of boost. I also like to run/jog every once in a while and maybe do some random bodyweight stuff.

I wonder if I should just stay with 32kg, as I think it offers me enough strength for my needs. Sure it would be nice to get to heavier bells, but I wonder if the cost of finding my limit exceeds the benefits. And there is always ways to progress without using a heavier bell, like just adding power to the swing and doing get ups slower. + Staying with the 32kg would make things very simple.
 
I wonder if I should just stay with 32kg, as I think it offers me enough strength for my needs. Sure it would be nice to get to heavier bells, but I wonder if the cost of finding my limit exceeds the benefits. And there is always ways to progress without using a heavier bell, like just adding power to the swing and doing get ups slower. + Staying with the 32kg would make things very simple.

Once your body has adapted to the stress you are providing it, you will cease making any progress, and will begin to regress a bit because the body learns to be very efficient at what you regularly do.

So my advice is to seek progress in one way or another. New weight, new skill, new movement, new volume... something. Always seek progress somewhere. It's like spinning plates -- you don't have to spin them all continuously, but you have to keep putting in a bit of new energy and effort to each area periodically, or things begin to decline.
 
Once your body has adapted to the stress you are providing it, you will cease making any progress, and will begin to regress a bit because the body learns to be very efficient at what you regularly do.

So my advice is to seek progress in one way or another. New weight, new skill, new movement, new volume... something. Always seek progress somewhere. It's like spinning plates -- you don't have to spin them all continuously, but you have to keep putting in a bit of new energy and effort to each area periodically, or things begin to decline.

Thanks for the advice! Very informative!
 
I've had this debate in my mind for some time. When strength training, do we as humans reach a point where trying to get stronger will lead to smaller gains while the risk of injury increases significantly? For example, I could do a strength program like PTTP or SS and take my deadlift to 500-550lbs. That's definitely impressive and I think we can all agree that a person that can lift +500lbs is strong. But would trying to reach +600lbs be advisable for someone who does not compete?

In other words, should we limit our strength in order to increase injury prevention? I realize that getting strong is a form of injury... but how strong is strong enough?


A great question I have thought about as well. The best way to think about this is opportunity cost, similar to the "cost of adaptation" article.

First, we are assuming a non-competitive athlete that has health goals. As Steve F. said, athletic goals may not be healthy. It is only anecdotal evidence but the few competitive football players and runners I know have not aged well.

Here is a summary of some good points from previous points and my own thoughts.

1. Once you meet a strength standard such as 2.0 bodyweight DL, then you can start cycling through good enough strength goals until you have achieved them. I am working on my PTTP bench now as it was a weak point and DL for maintenance. Glad the gym reopened where I am at after a two week shutdown. There are lots of standards to aim for. I think Steve F. and others have posted on challenging but reasonable goals in multiples of bodyweight or bodyweight reps. Half bodyweight press, half bodyweight 20 rep goblet squat. Pick a military pushup test Royal Marine one is really hard. Get within the leaderboard at the appropriate TSC level. etc.

2. Once you have met these standards, try to maintain them as long as possible as you age. As Charles Staley said, at a certain age, maintaining is gaining.

3. Rotate through these goals, so you can push them a bit further without adding much more time as Pavel M. said. If you concentrate on pullups for six weeks, you can make progress until the next time you focus on it. There is research evidence that more trainging helps you to come back to previous levels more quickly. As Bro Mo says, without some goal and focus to improve, training motivation may fail or some guys need that competitive aspect just to keep going.

4. Look at all the things going on in your lift and allot a fixed amount of time to work out and be satisfied with whatever progress you can make in that fixed time. In real life we have constraints in time. We are not olympic powerlifters who can workout twice a day and have tons of time to recover. In your deadlift example, going beyone 500 would take a significant amount of time at the cost of maintaining or gaining in other skills. If you choose that as your goal, do it within the alloted time for a year, but don't expect to keep all your other goals on track.

5. If you are concerned about injury, as well as easy strength, there is increasing reps rather than weight. Bro Mo gave a tip to me related to owning the weight. For example, start with a weight you can get a three rep technical max and work your way up to a ten rep technical max and then add weight. But don't even go close to total failure. I am five pounds short of my goal right now but once I get it I am going to go for reps rather than keep adding weight for two weeks.

6. Once strength standards have been achieved work on strength-endurance such as snatch test results, mobility and other modalities. Rucking etc. Come back to strength when you have established gains in those areas or you get bored or plateau. In short, moving fro plateau to plateau may be a way of looking at it. This may be more appropriate for more intermediate lifters like myself rather than very advanced lifters.

7. In short, ask yourself what else you could be doing with that time compared to the benefits? Opportunity cost - Wikipedia
 
I've hit some limits that I am happy about. I'd have to get very careful with things and put in an extra special effort to surpass them, which I have no need of doing for any practical reasons in my life.
  • 1h swings with the 32kg bell
  • TGUs with the 40kg bell
  • Deadlift of 370lbs
  • 1h kettlebell press with the 40kg bell
  • 110lbs barbell military press for a few reps
  • 5 1h pushups
 
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Assuming our goal is not for lifting competitions... I found this article from Dan John to be golden.
Dan John - Sleepless In Seatle

The numbers for "Game Changer" are quite sane. The lifts are also well rounded in my view. We just need to add on some good KB standards. A few other quantifiable standards I think are missing, like some basic running/sprints. After that you just need more time in your chosen primary goal. Health/Longevity? Judo? Soccer? etc... Specialize in your primary goal.

After general sane limits are reached, you need to spend increasingly more of your time/energy in specializing.

To quote Dan John from Easy Strength - "the goal is to keep the goal the goal"

So what's your goal?
 
In my case, yes. My ego always makes progress faster than my strength.
...Actually i steal it from Mr Victor in the Easy strength, the one who runs a marathon and do one arm chin. He said that he was using barbell before, but he tended to increase the weight to fast to soon.
 
I've had this debate in my mind for some time. When strength training, do we as humans reach a point where trying to get stronger will lead to smaller gains while the risk of injury increases significantly?

Well, yes.

Once you reach the "Intermediate Lifter" stage, this becomes pretty self evident.
 
But when setting a specific strength goal, like pulling a 900lb deadlift, we could be putting ourselves on a path towards injury.

Ummmm.....

The potential injury threshold is waaay below 900 lbs.

Try searching on YouTube for "deadlift blackout". The majority of the guys fainting are at weights waaaaaay below 900 lbs.

I'm not trying to be an anti deadlift scare monger (I do them 1-2 times a week).

But....

Please don't imagine you have to be lifting close to half a ton to think you can get injured with a barbell.

Most of my injuries came with lifts that weren't even close to my 1 RMs.
 
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Interesting! I have always associated a very high level of strength with better efficient movement patterns/ athleticism, injury resistance, hormonal benefits and increased body composition (although this would be a side effect). Feel free to agree or disagree here.

I'll disagree.

I've been doing Olympic lifting for 7 years. My PR was a 131 kg / 288 lb clean and jerk.

Does this make me better at golf, baseball, or skiing?

Heck no.....

I'm terrible at all of them.
 
Consider Dan John and his quadrant theory. We are all Q3. Lots of qualities, minimum level. Don't be weak in any of the major qualities like strength, power, flexibility, mobility, balance, agility, coordination, etc. Don't lose one at the expense of another. Work on your weaknesses.

Personal goals of course may dictate training of some qualities over another - Personally based on my athletic hobbies I value maximizing power > pure strength, and more specifically power endurance > maximum power - but I still want to be good in both (and all) those categories since they all intertwine.

+1

For these reasons, and more, I intentionally put a cap on my limit strength training.

My deadlift doesn't need to be more than about 60% more than my clean.

Any time I spend unnecessarily trying to make my DL bigger means I'm not training other important competition qualities, such as power and mobility.

Also, for me personally, if I train exclusively for limit strength at the expense of everything else, I can make faster progress if I eat like a strongman and train at a bodyweight about 20 lbs heavier than I normally train at, but that has other consequences for mobility, blood pressure, aesthetics, joint health and general health that I prefer to stay away from.
 
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