Other/Mixed Should You Fear Lumbar Flexion?
- Thread starter watchnerd
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
bluejeff
Level 6 Valued Member
Is that like a V-up? I say no, they're fine.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
On one of the Oly podcasts, saw a dude rip off a bunch at a crazy speed.
GovernorSilver
Level 6 Valued Member
My low back was injured in the past on a badly executed deadlift attempt. I've also had back spasms.
I've had no issues with Jefferson Curls, which I started trying out years after those injuries. I often do them empty-handed. Sometimes I'll hold a bag loaded with some soup cans. I started doing them to try to improve hamstring flexibility. From what I understand, the purpose of the weight is to help stretch out those hammies a little more. I don't know of any coach that I trust who thinks going heavy in this move is a good idea.
Pavel Tsatsouline teaches a similar looking exercise in his Resilient video, using a light KB.
I've had no issues with Jefferson Curls, which I started trying out years after those injuries. I often do them empty-handed. Sometimes I'll hold a bag loaded with some soup cans. I started doing them to try to improve hamstring flexibility. From what I understand, the purpose of the weight is to help stretch out those hammies a little more. I don't know of any coach that I trust who thinks going heavy in this move is a good idea.
Pavel Tsatsouline teaches a similar looking exercise in his Resilient video, using a light KB.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Just did some off an 18" step stool.
Weight was a 12 kg KB, so nothing heavy.
Like you, I mostly feel it in my hamstrings.
I don't feel any major traction effect in my spine (TBH, I feel much more traction from dead hangs), but maybe it's just too light for that.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
I used to be able to do these... "Pike-Ups" w. a "powerwheel" (ab wheel you put on your feet) or with a TRX are also great - I can still do those, sorta.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
Last night I did hanging knee-ups (calling them leg lifts would be way overstating what actually occurs...) w. ankle weights. Very underrated exercise.
GovernorSilver
Level 6 Valued Member
When I do a Jefferson Curl, it's almost always after doing a gentle back extension stretch like Sphinx or Cobra.
I got the idea from one of Mark Wildman's cooldown sequences and some Viniyoga
I got the idea from one of Mark Wildman's cooldown sequences and some Viniyoga
It depends on where you're coming from. It's great to be able to flex your lumbar at will in the course of daily activities. I don't - I used up my lifetime's worth of flexing my lumbar in the course of daily activities, effective October 23, 1997, when my disc blew. Early on in my recovery, I learned it just wasn't going to work for me any longer.
Good to read Stu McGill on this, IMO. He talks about certain activities being "self-selecting," and long-distance, high performance cycling, e.g., Tour de France riders, seems to be at or near the top of his list. His point is simple enough - as a generalization, that posture is bad for people, and the people who you see riding the TdF are those who, for whatever reason, have adapted.
My personal experience - my back never feels better than after I've been on the bike all day. And then a few hours later or the next day, all hell breaks loose, no matter how careful I am post-ride. I've stopped riding as a result except perhaps once or twice a year, but I was a pretty serious roadie for a couple of decades or so.
-S-
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I switched to an Electra Cruiser bike, my back is a lot happier, although you aren’t getting anywhere too fast on it.
Jeff Roark
Level 7 Valued Member
I've been doing it quite a bit lately with my SLDLs. I've allowed my back to round a bit, and its definitely made me stronger. I did 315x10 on the full range SLDL.
There are only so many things I have time for, bike just isn't going to be one of them for me. Besides, I loved being a roadie - the position felt great to me. If I was ever going to try it again, I'd just work on my position on a road bike - I had a custom frame made for myself, a road bike from the last century
that weighed 16 lbs, ready to ride, out of fillet-brazed steel. It's a think of beauty and I do miss riding it.-S-
I would say this is a core - no pun intended - principle here at StrongFirst. Too many people are focused on the front abs muscles, six-pack and all that, when the TVA is really what you need to be strong. And my personal theory is that strength frees up mobility - well, it's not an original thought, I know - and that increase "core" strength, in this case the TVA, will then facility better mobility in the hip and hamstrings. I'm a good example - deadlifting and splits really happened together for me.
-S-
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I have gymnastic rings and I've seen some folks do them by putting their feet in the rings.
I'm pretty sure I'd face plant and break my nose.
I love 75 kg barbell roll-outs, though.
Last edited:
TimothyGander
Level 5 Valued Member
If you live in an apartment (as most people in my area do) your street address will look like that: Street Name Building Number Apartment Number, e.g. "Jefferson Avenue 30/17" (order may vary, of course). Many people routinely mix these up, giving an apartment number as a building number and vice versa. Sometimes it's just annoying, but it's problematic when the reversed address is also real.
What I've eventually learned is why this happens so often: these people have their addresses memorized like a random string of characters, the same way you would memorize a phone number; they fail to realize that both 30 and 17 aren't there by chance, but signify specific things in physical space, in other words, they couldn't tell you what either of these numbers taken alone actually means. So obviously, just as you or me could misremember a phone number starting with 510 as 501 or even 150, it's easy for them to misremember the 30/17 address as 17/30.
And that's the better ones. My friend who's still in the business recently delivered to a guy who didn't know his apartment number at all. She asked him to go outside and tell her the number on his front door. Unfortunately, there wasn't one. Undaunted, she asked for the numbers on the neighbors' doors. On the left there was a 56, on the right, 58. Apparently he was still mystified as to how she divined his own apartment number from this information.
That's a funny story. Most apartments I've lived in here in the US are Building Number - Street - Apartment Number, e.g. 57 N Jefferson Apt C. I can see how if it was 57/C (or how its done where you are) could be a little more confusing. Thanks for answering!
TimothyGander
Level 5 Valued Member
Interesting, is it common to have apartments distinguished by letters instead of numbers stateside? That would be certainly harder to mix up, but wouldn't fly in my area where buildings can have dozens or hundreds apartments each.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Great topic and there’s been insightful remarks here.
For the record, we’re talking about loaded flexion yes?
Call me crazy, I think lifters who rigidly (as more often than not they should), have a higher risk of flexion related back injuries than nonlifters, even in non competitive atmospheres. Maybe outlandish, but these athletes train to purposefully avoid this position as often as possible, while a normal person with no concept of proper form, will do everyday activities with no second thought about flexion.
I remember @kennycroxdale posted an article on this topic about an experiment where back flexion strength was measured across powerlifters and regular people and the powerlifters demonstrated no superior strength to an untrained individual.
That being said, Tommy Kono used to do his deadlifts, which seem similar to Jefferson DLs, for this specific reason - as “chaos training.” Louie implemented round back good mornings, perhaps for similar reasons, as I’m not sure such an exercise would aid in a properly executed lift.
However, there are “healthy” ways to practice at least maintaining the ROM of flexion: hanging leg raises, Cat Camel, hollow position anythings, pull throughs, hip thrusts. As far as I know, many of these at least put the back in flexion while strengthening surroundings areas. Perhaps it is enough?
Just thoughts on observations.
For the record, we’re talking about loaded flexion yes?
Call me crazy, I think lifters who rigidly (as more often than not they should), have a higher risk of flexion related back injuries than nonlifters, even in non competitive atmospheres. Maybe outlandish, but these athletes train to purposefully avoid this position as often as possible, while a normal person with no concept of proper form, will do everyday activities with no second thought about flexion.
I remember @kennycroxdale posted an article on this topic about an experiment where back flexion strength was measured across powerlifters and regular people and the powerlifters demonstrated no superior strength to an untrained individual.
That being said, Tommy Kono used to do his deadlifts, which seem similar to Jefferson DLs, for this specific reason - as “chaos training.” Louie implemented round back good mornings, perhaps for similar reasons, as I’m not sure such an exercise would aid in a properly executed lift.
However, there are “healthy” ways to practice at least maintaining the ROM of flexion: hanging leg raises, Cat Camel, hollow position anythings, pull throughs, hip thrusts. As far as I know, many of these at least put the back in flexion while strengthening surroundings areas. Perhaps it is enough?
Just thoughts on observations.
Last edited:
bluejeff
Level 6 Valued Member
At the risk of repeating myself.... If you don't use it, you lose it. If you only train within a certain ROM for any joint, don't be surprised when you injure yourself outside of that ROM. Obviously if someone has an injury, their case should be evaluated individually.