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Kettlebell Shoulder rotation for double or 1H "hike" drills

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Jeffro

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Is there an official Strong First standard for shoulder rotation in either the starting position (bell parked) or fully hiked position for double bell and/or 1 handed movements? This would include double and 1-Hand cleans, swings, snatches etc. Both on first rep and later reps? And if there is a standard, is it a definite definite thing, or is it dependent on the individual somewhat?

Specifically, I recently acquired my first matching bell and was practicing some double cleans and presses. I notice in ROTKB, Pavel is very clear that the parked starting position should be with internal rotation. Meaning if looking down at the bells before a clean, they form a "V" pointing toward yourself. A) ROTKB predates strong first, right? Is there a updated standard B) That feels very strange to me C) The exact opposite advice can be found from other sources (V pointing away from you). D) There is no specific standard in ROTKB for shoulder rotation at the full hike position, but the photos show varying degrees of rotation, from moderate internal rotation, to basically neutral rotation. E)It is not clear if any of this necessarily applies to anything other than the first rep from parked, I assume it should, but I've been known to be an idiot sometimes.

Just going of initial feel for myself, starting in EXTERNAL rotation (V pointing away from me) feels better, I feel my lats engaging, my shoulders feel more packed, and everything feels more stable. I can start externally rotated, and hike to neutral or internal rotation with equal comfort. Maybe I have wierd shoulders? Maybe I'm just a bit weak to be doing doubles? Maybe I'm a shoulder injury just waiting to happen?

Similarly, I don't remember any specific guidelines on rotation in S&S, but many seem to be internally rotated (thumb back) in the full hike. A couple opinions online seem to complain that this rotation hurts, and advocate either neutral rotation or even full external rotation in the hike pass (thumb forward). I haven't really noticed my arm caring how it's rotated with 1 hand work, and I don't think I've done much other than a neutral start and whatever slight internal rotation happens naturally in the hike position.

Thoughts? What do other doubles guides have to say; KB Strong? Aggressive Strength?
 
I always used to use the V pointed away until I read an article where Andrew Read said to point them towards you.

To me the V away feels more natural as far as lat packing goes. Interested to hear what others more knowledgeable than me have to say.
 
Here's Pavel's take (oops, @Snowman already posted it while I was typing):
The Proper Thumb Position in Kettlebell Pulls

There are definitely coflicting opinions out there. Personally, I like to set up in an inverted V from the floor (open end of the V facing me) and internally rotate past neutral on the back swing, but not to the extreme of the thumb pointing straight back. At the top of a swing, the handle is parallel to the floor.

I can not really imagine setting up in an externally rotated position.
 
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@Jeffro I prefer to launch from the internally rotated grip as it allows me to get into maximal depth for my hip hinge (more power) and allows for a maximal stretch of the lat (more eccentric loading). This technique gives me the most power output while expending the least amount of energy, which is huge during the snatch test. Hope this helps....
 
@natewhite39 very interesting observation, I'll have to play with rotation and focus on the hinge, I hadn't noticed a difference there yet.

thanks @Snowman and @Steve W. for that article. I just did the supination, lat activation, anti-shrug then pronation exercise and it taught me a lot. I knew it intellectually, but not really physically. Keeping that exercise in mind, I setup with a party-platform wide V, got good and packed and anti-shrugged, and did a double clean. I focused so much on my lats and shoulders and hike that I darn near missed my rack, LOL! I could almost see Pavel scowling at me with thumbs down and a circle and cross through my face!

Also looks like since I'm just using 24's, a neutral grip is also approved.

Pavel says the main reason to rotate at all is to clear the legs with large bells, so I guess it matters much less with 1 handed drills, with the exception of avoiding full external rotation in the hike to avoid armbaring yourself.
 
With doubles I tend to start with the handles in a straight line left to right. As I hike the shoulder rotates internally somewhat.

I have experimented with various, but slight internal rotation takes stress off the insertion end of the bicep as I begin to ascend.
 
So, this is a little off-topic, but just wanted to throw this comment out there somewhere. Double bell work is awesome. When I got my 2nd 24kg bell, I had a 3RM L, 4RM R on 24kg 1 arm mil press. Fresh out of the box I had a 3RM for double mil presses. So the doubles weren't any "harder" in one sense. But oh boy do they work you harder. A couple days of 10x1 double presses GTG throughout the day and my whole body was tightening up, more so than the previous week of 1 arm ROP style ladders of up to 5x [24kg (1,2) + 16kg (3,4,5)].

I've had a good bit of stress and chaos in the personal life lately, and so any formal training plan just isn't working right now. I've just been GTG with double 24kg C&P and front squats, complex style. Inspired by but not strictly "Chinese Food" rung a day thing. Chinese Food for Rapid Pressing Gains

So I'm currently just not able to work in anywhere near the same volume in a day or week, I haven't had but 1 30+ minute session in the last week, maybe 2 weeks. But practicing with doubles when I can fit in 30-60 seconds is proving productive until I can get some normalcy back in my routine. 2 weeks in, and current body recomp, fat loss and strength goals are still on track. A kettlebell is very efficient. Double bells seem absurdly efficient.
 
The standards are for the shoulders to stay packed. They very rarely stay packed when they internally rotate (perhaps if you are a mutant?). But internal rotation of the shoulders should be independent of forearm pronation - you should be able to keep your shoulders externally rotated and well packed while rotating your palms up and down. If your shoulders unpack in either hand position, then that's not good making the V-in, V-out or horizontal a moot point.

One thing we don't want (you probably don't want that either) is tweaked elbows. What contributes to them? Constant tension and eccentric deceleration, especially in a reverse bicep curl move...hence the result of a thumbs up approach. Pavel's article compared thumbs up set up and downswing to arm-barring yourself on your pelvis, forcing elbow hyperextension. A simply forearm turn medially, away from 12 o'clock can make a huge difference to elbow happiness.
 
I know that keeping thumb up May mess your elbow with HS technique. I prefer internal rotation as the bell fits better between the legs (single and double ) . But i dont need to do that For 24 or Lighter ...
 
AND ... now my shoulders hurt :( Not too bad, but definitely not good, on lateral, about 3-4 fingers down from the acromium, dull ache. Strangely enough not while pressing, but just sitting, or unweighted abduction.
I don't think it's the rotation thing, I switched to a very wide V pointing toward me to start. I think it's just too much volume. I didn't really analyze the chinese food program too much, just needed a little structure for a time of not putting in large chunks of time per session. In my mind I wasn't doing much volume, but when I add it up, it was a lot after all. I think the GTG throughout the day allowed me to do way more than was good for me, but since it never hurt when I pressed, I ignored little twinges until they built up. At first I thought maybe my double cleans were a little sloppy, but as the days went on and my form cleaned up, the pain didn't.
I've read good things about the Rung-a-day format, but if I do it again I'll have to plan in some more rest or lower numbers and not hope I'll rest enough by feel. The "always fresh" aspect of GTG just let me do too much.

Just a quick comparison, but week 1 of ROP with a new bell is what, 54 reps with a 6-8 RM bell? Rung-a-day with a 3RM bell I ended up with 96 my first week and it was alright, just slight twinges starting, 2nd week I was up to 108 though and definitely should have cut back but it was just too easy to squeeze in one more small set, then 2 hours later another. I had to travel for a family emergency and did get a forced 5 day break which had them back to 100 percent, but jumped right back into a 4 rung ladder, another 100 or so presses this week and it's no bueno.
It's a press rest for me for a few days at least.
 
Based on location and symptoms maybe a touch of bursitis. Rest is best, and Ibuprofen if well-tolerated can do wonders.

When pressing, do you execute with elbows out to the side and up, or more of a straight up front press?

For myself, while I love long cycle and C&P doubles, I find the extra few degrees of clearance I get when doing singles to be a lot less stressful on the joint. Single Sott's press are pushing it and too much heavy doubles can give me problems - having had bursitis in both shoulders at different times.

Two handed jerk seems to cause fewer issues than pressing, eccentric loading is better tolerated for me.
 
Specific to the original question -
Begin in neutral and during the hike make sure the arms get connected to the ribs and shoulders connected to the body and (as Martine noted) the forearms can rotate
Some will find the internal turn of the kb handles to be comfy
Some will find neutral to be comfy
Some will find a bit of a thumbs up position to be comfy

But they all come from a position where the arms and shoulders are connected and not rotating from the shoulders/upper back/shoulder blades (these stay connected)

To the irritation Jeffro is noting - Double KBs are not forgiving of mobility issues where single KBs allow for pressing with some mobility issues
When you have had your shoulders checked and are healed up post a vid of your double MP
 
@North Coast Miller my groove is rather flared. More so than with singles, and more than I realized until I watched a video of myself. After seeing it, and playing with it some, it seems that a more forward groove gives me a tendency to extend my lower back and I guess I intuitively knew that was bad, and flared to have less weight forward requiring counterbalancing by leaning back. I suspect once I'm healed I can fix it via lower volume practice and that healer of most things, strength.

@Brett Jones I actually have a vid I made for myself to see problems and boy was it enlightening. I think I should have started with a video form check much earlier than later. BUT I made it for myself, in my skivies, I'll have to look at it again and see if it's too scandalous to post publicly!
 
@North Coast Miller my groove is rather flared. More so than with singles, and more than I realized until I watched a video of myself. After seeing it, and playing with it some, it seems that a more forward groove gives me a tendency to extend my lower back and I guess I intuitively knew that was bad, and flared to have less weight forward requiring counterbalancing by leaning back. I suspect once I'm healed I can fix it via lower volume practice and that healer of most things, strength.

I mention this as I find keeping the flare to a minimum helps with my shoulder problems. The more you flare the more you isolate the delts - think of the difference between dumbbell military press and a seated behind the neck barbell press. For me, this works well with lighter weight or for the eccentric portion of a lot of pressing lifts. I avoid it if my shoulders are acting up.

With heavier weight, and in the case of doubles where there's less available play in the shoulder, I tend to keep my elbows more forward, as I would with a jerk or to a slightly lesser extent a push press. Not exactly by-the-book, but it also drags in some upper pec at the expense of delt isolation, a good trade off IMHO, depending on one's goals and shoulder health.
 
@Jeffro, it would be great for you to see a fitness or medical professional in person about your aches and pains, or in lieu of that, for you to work with someone via Skype or, in lieu of that, for your to take our Kettlebell Course to learn good technique on the basic lifts or, in lieu of that, for you to post a video or two of you performing some of the lifts we've been discussing here.

Any and all of the above can help move this conversation from the general to the specific.

-S-
 
This article might have some useful information.


Thank you!
This drill from the blog post worked surprisingly well:

"Stand up and straighten out one arm in front of you, its palm facing down. Maximally rotate your shoulder (external rotation) and your wrist (supination) until your palm faces up. Note the tight “screwed in” sensation in the shoulder.

Repeat the above drill—turn your palm up and screw your shoulder into its socket. Anti-shrug your shoulder with your lat. Note the tight sensation in your armpit. Without losing this sensation and without disturbing the shoulder alignment slowly turn your palm down."

Got a lot of practice to do!
 
@Brett Jones @Steve Freides and all...
So I thought rather than uploading a cleaned up form check later, this is probably fairly representative of my form over the last few weeks, warts and all. Critiques welcome, I certainly was surprised by somethings when I watched it for the first time. I promise I can actually get my arms vertical overhead, but apparently I just wasn't until I paid attention to it!

I'd also love feedback on the squats, I've never really done much squating nor really studied form much.
Thanks!
 
Watched a little before it froze for me - not sure your knees are locked, overhead looks OK to me, back looks almost good, rounds a little at the bottom.

-S-
 
@Jeffro,

A few observations:

-- Catching clean with soft knees, instead of being strongly zipped up.
-- I agree with @Steve Freides that it looks like you are pressing with soft knees as well, instead of pressing from a planked up position.
--You never really fixate the bells overhead in the lockout position. From the front, you arms are far from vertical/parallel.
--On the squat, you are sitting back behind your feet instead of squatting down between your feet. Therefore, you have to hunch forward at the bottom and lift your rack away from your body to counterbalance.

My recommendation is to stick to single presses for your main training, work on your mobility to improve your overhead position, and perhaps practice your doubles with lighter weights.
 
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