Barbell Side Press Volume (Anyone actually doing them?)

[mikerobinson]

It seems to be generally recommended to do 60-100 vertical presses per week for strength progress in the press. The bench press, from what I can gather, can progress with less volume.

My question is about the side press. It would be useful to have answers from people who have actually done it as part of a routine. I say, this because the side press with balancing an olympic barbell is a completely different beast to regular two handed shoulder presses or KB presses, much more effort, whole body, and co-ordination involved. It seems that a person could get away with less volume, because more volume in the side press is quite strenuous.

Therefore, any thoughts about the minimum effective number of barbell side presses per week per arm.

As it's an old time lift, perhaps @Harald Motz might have some thoughts.

Thanks

 

[mikerobinson]

Just to add, there will be two days of TGU too.

The program is to run PTTP twice a week with S&S twice a week. To anticipate 'why the side press'. It's for an older gentleman in his sixties, in incredible shape, who has been lifting for quite a while, and who likes the old time lifts, and finds benefits from the SP, and doesn't have access to rack.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

It seems to be generally recommended to do 60-100 vertical presses per week for strength progress in the press. The bench press, from what I can gather, can progress with less volume.

My question is about the side press. It would be useful to have answers from people who have actually done it as part of a routine. I say, this because the side press with balancing an olympic barbell is a completely different beast to regular two handed shoulder presses or KB presses, much more effort, whole body, and co-ordination involved. It seems that a person could get away with less volume, because more volume in the side press is quite strenuous.

Therefore, any thoughts about the minimum effective number of barbell side presses per week per arm.

As it's an old time lift, perhaps @Harald Motz might have some thoughts.

Thanks

I haven't used side press, but I am bent pressing regularly for the past 17 months. I used a barbell for about a month of that period. I feel that for general purpose 25 to 50 lifts each side with a Goldilocks weight is an effective dose volume-wise (Goldilocks weight - one that calls for prefect alignment but do not lead to compensations and that makes you feel stronger at the end of a session). I guess that side press volume is somewhere between one arm press and a bent press, and more to the bent press side.

 

[Bauer]

This makes me curious. The side press and PTTP intrigue me. But how would you program the weight?

The PTTP programming for the DL is pretty straightforward. But how would you increase weights from workout to workout for the SP? 5lbs per sessions seems like a bit too much, doesn't it? the 5/3/2 rep scheme seems fair enough.

 

[Steve W.]

I've done lots of PTTP side pressing. PTTP programming worked fine, but I could see a lower frequency/higher volume approach working too. I don't think the side press needs to be programmed differently from other presses.

the side press with balancing an olympic barbell is a completely different beast to regular two handed shoulder presses or KB presses, much more effort, whole body, and co-ordination involved.

Not really. In some ways the side press is LESS strenuous than a one arm military press with a KB or DB. The long bar is actually more stable than a KB or DB (and a KB is more stable than a DB).

The key is finding the right balance point to grip the bar. Instead of trying to center your hand on the bar, center a point at the base of the palm below the pinky finger. In other words, more your thumb side toward the collar and the pinky side away from the collar. Experiment to find the spot that balances right for you and you will eventually learn to find that spot repeatably by feel.

When you grip the bar at the right balance point, the bar will just sit there and be very stable, even if you grip it loosely or open your hand. It's almost like pushing the bar up and down in a Smith machine.

Another reason the side press is less strenuous than the MP is that you can support the bar with your lat and push it away from your/push yourself away from the bar to get it started, and you can finesse the sticking point by using body lean. This make the side press very shoulder friendly as well. You have a lot of wiggle room, literally and figuratively, to wedge under the bar and find a comfortable groove that avoids any impingement (although there is an increased demand for external rotation compared to a regular MP).

Of course, this means you can use more weight, but pound for pound, the side press is easier than the MP because it is a hybrid press/support lift (compared to an MP being a press and the bent press being a support).

BTW, the traditional by the book side press specifies locked knees, but the PTTP version allows for a bent front leg, which I prefer and use. This gives you a lot of options as to exactly how much lean you use, from almost an MP to almost a bent press.

To get the bar into position, you can take it off a rack at shoulder height, or one arm snatch or jerk it overhead (you can also use the off hand to assist with this) and lower it into the starting position. I find that lowering the bar (imagine actively pulling it down) before the first rep makes it easier to get really tight and find a really good starting position.

PTTP describes shouldering the bar into position from the floor, but I have never actually done it that way. One of the parameters of PTTP is that you only need a bar and plates (hence the side press or floor press instead of the bench press or MP off a rack), but that isn't something I feel obliged to stick to.

But how would you program the weight?

The PTTP programming for the DL is pretty straightforward. But how would you increase weights from workout to workout for the SP? 5lbs per sessions seems like a bit too much, doesn't it? the 5/3/2 rep scheme seems fair enough.

I've done straight PTTP 100%/90%, although this can be a little problematic if the empty bar is at or near your limit. I've also used 54321 with a constant weight for all sets. A 4 steps forward/3 steps back structured wave cycle works well, but you do have to back cycle a lot. Your max will not progress anything like a big lift such as the DL, so there will be a lot of repeating. A step cycle or Easy Strength approach can work too.

 

[Bauer]

Thank you very much @Steve W. !

That's very helpful. And how much weight would you add per session?

 

[Steve W.]

That's very helpful. And how much weight would you add per session?

5lbs. The smallest plates I have are 2.5lbs, so not much choice. Plus, I'd rather back cycle or work a fixed weight for a while than try to microload with smaller jumps.

 

[mikerobinson]

5lbs. The smallest plates I have are 2.5lbs, so not much choice. Plus, I'd rather back cycle or work a fixed weight for a while than try to microload with smaller jumps.

How would this work?

If the empty barbell weighs 20 kgs. And you add 5 lbs per session, that would mean in a one handed press, you are adding 50 lbs over the course of a PTTP ten day / two week cycle. Add the bar into this, and you're looking at a 90 lbs one handed press for five reps!

Even at 4 days forward, 3 days back, that's 20 lbs in 4 days. The problem is the bar is already 20 kgs. So adding 5 lbs on the second day, third day, fourth day, takes you up to about 30 kgs. Three days back to 22.5 kgs, then four days forward to 32 kgs, and so on. That's a stiff rate of progress for a one handed press, yes?

 

[mikerobinson]

Not really. In some ways the side press is LESS strenuous than a one arm military press with a KB or DB. The long bar is actually more stable than a KB or DB (and a KB is more stable than a DB).

This has not been my experience. A one handed 32 kg KB press is infinitely more stable and easier to press than one hand pressing a 7 foot long 2o kgs olympic bar, with 12 kg of weights on, weighing a total of 32 kgs.

While pressing it one handed, especially as a side press, there's so much more stabilisation and balance involved. With a 32 kg KB, you can just push it straight up, with very little thought.

Ditto for:

It's almost like pushing the bar up and down in a Smith machine.

It's not even close to a Smith machine press.

Perhaps the difference is because I shoulder it off the floor, per PTTP, and then the bar has to swing slowly around the neck, while stabilising and balancing it. This is a completely different beast to taking it off the rack.

 

[Steve W.]

If the empty barbell weighs 20 kgs. And you add 5 lbs per session, that would mean in a one handed press, you are adding 50 lbs over the course of a PTTP ten day / two week cycle. Add the bar into this, and you're looking at a 90 lbs one handed press for five reps!

I never suggested adding 5lbs per session linearly, or 50lbs in ten days.

Even at 4 days forward, 3 days back, that's 20 lbs in 4 days.

It's actually 15lbs over 4 sessions before back cycling, and those are working weights, not new maxes. A cycle might look like this:

45/50/55/60
50/55/60/65
55/60/65/70

So that's 12 sessions to get to 70lbs as a working weight. If you back cycle and restart at 50lbs, it's 12 more sessions to get to 75lbs, and so forth. You can also repeat cycles, or extend cycles by repeating steps, such as:

45/45/55/55
60/60/65/65...etc.

or

45/45/45/50/50/50
55/55/55/60/60/60...etc.

or

45/50/55/45/50/55
50/55/60/50/55/60...etc.

or

45/50/55/60
45/50/55/60
50/55/60/65
50/55/60/65...etc.

There are lots of ways to cook it. I did specify that you can't progress the side press like a DL and that there will be a lot more back cycling and repeating, and that if your max is too low relative to an empty bar it doesn't work as well (a 5ft bar or EZ-curl can help).

This has not been my experience. A one handed 32 kg KB press is infinitely more stable and easier to press than one hand pressing a 7 foot long 2o kgs olympic bar, with 12 kg of weights on, weighing a total of 32 kgs.

I can't argue with your experience, only share mine. I can side press a lot more weight with a barbell than I can with a KB. My max KB press is 36kg for a single, but my max barbell side press is 105lbs, and 95lbs for 5 reps.

Perhaps the difference is because I shoulder it off the floor, per PTTP, and then the bar has to swing slowly around the neck, while stabilising and balancing it. This is a completely different beast to taking it off the rack.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't expect shouldering the bar to make that much of a difference. I often one arm snatch the bar overhead from the floor and lower it into position for the first rep (with a challenging weight I grip the bar with my working hand in pressing position, assisting the snatch with my off hand, then take my off hand away when the bar is overhead), so the bar is moving around a lot before it reaches the starting point. Even taking the bar off the rack, you still have to turn your body and step away from the rack to get the bar in position.

As I said, the key is finding the right balance point. If you don't grip the bar at the balance point, it's going to tilt and wave around, and you will have to fight to stabilize it. When the balance point is right, it's extremely stable and you don't even have to close your hand to keep it in place. You may grip tightly to help generate overall tension, but it's not necessary to stabilize the bar.

 

[jca17]

Individual perception aside, a barbell will be one of the most stable implements you can use as far as the weight distribution goes but if you let roation creep in, it will be difficult to stop it, which might be the extra tension and difficulty involved.

 

[ShawnM]

A handy thing you can do to add smaller weight jumps without spending a bunch of money on micro plates is to pick up a pair of 1 pound ankle weights from any sporting goods store. They would work on a barbell as well as on one side of a KB handle. Smaller weight jumps for around 10.00.

 

[Bauer]

Re microloading I would like to highlight this seemingly minor comment of @Steve W.

A step cycle or Easy Strength approach can work too.

Thus, repeat either the same workout a couple of times before moving up (step cycle) or do about 10 rather easy reps (no struggling at all) with any rep scheme you like (3x3, 2x5, 5/3/2, 6 singles, 1x10). This approach is probably more effective than microloading.

 

[Steve Freides]

Lots of folks, including some of the famous old-timers, would use a shorter bar for the bent press. I have a 5-foot bar I got just for this purpose.

-S-

 

[Bill Been]

Lots of folks, including some of the famous old-timers, would use a shorter bar for the bent press. I have a 5-foot bar I got just for this purpose.

-S-

I went even further and got a collection of really short bars pre-loaded to various weights. I store them on a long rack. At the gym. I call them "dumbbells". Over the years, I have found several other uses for them besides the side press. This has freed my barbell up to be loaded with weights far in excess of anything approachable in a side-press during another new motion I simply call "the press" wherein I use BOTH hands to press the much larger load overhead to lockout. This system of using the side press implements - the "dumbbells" - to distract mirror-bound Curl Bros in order to free up barbells and squat racks for productive training has been a godsend.

 

[Steve W.]

I went even further and got a collection of really short bars pre-loaded to various weights. I store them on a long rack. At the gym. I call them "dumbbells". Over the years, I have found several other uses for them besides the side press. This has freed my barbell up to be loaded with weights far in excess of anything approachable in a side-press during another new motion I simply call "the press" wherein I use BOTH hands to press the much larger load overhead to lockout. This system of using the side press implements - the "dumbbells" - to distract mirror-bound Curl Bros in order to free up barbells and squat racks for productive training has been a godsend.

When I logged into the forum and saw that @Bill Been had made a comment on this thread, somehow I was able to imagine it word for word before I clicked on it and actually read it. Maybe I'm psychic ;-).

Yes, the poundage potential of the side press is limited compared to the regular two-handed barbell MP and I'm not going to claim the side press is "better" in a general way, but I will say this:
--Dumbbells suck for side pressing. The long bar is great because of the stability I mentioned earlier in this thread, whereas dumbells are much harder to keep in the groove.
--The side press is a fun lift (one of MY main criteria for choosing an exercise) that feels great, is very shoulder friendly and allows you to use the lats and hips in a unique way (even compared to the bent press).
--I nevertheless appreciate Bill's efforts to keep the world safe from the hordes of ignorant and uncouth gym goers who monopolize the Olympic bars for side pressing.

 

[Bill Been]

Even if you meant that as snark - well played.