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Kettlebell Sikastan view on kettlebells

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offwidth said:
Open question…

There are a lot of different sports out there… are there sports where the barbell is not ‘king’ for strength and conditioning?

We tend in these conversations to usually bring up examples of TV Sports.
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I would say endurance running sports.

With endurance swimming there's no negative feedback from impact, so there is less neg
Don Fairbanks said:
IMO, 5 x 5 bb work would be great for an endurance running athlete.

One answer to the @offwidth question would be gymnastics, although I have never trained a high level gymnast.
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5×5 barbell work would be great for endurance and a bug mistake that a lot of endurance athletes make is making their strength work into another endurance exercise.

But we are talking high level SnC for athletes. I think in this instance kettlebell swings would probably be one of the best lifts they can do.

GHR/nordics would be a bodyweight movement.

Kettlebell/dumbbell in conjunction with a floss band for ankle stiffness work.

In regards to gymnasts, that would depend on the events they participate in. Someone that is a rings specialist does A LOT of additional strength work to supplement their work on the rings. But then there are events where there would be less of a need for absolute strength and so the barbell wouldn't be the best tool IMO.
 
I wish I had KB when I played football. 1. The endurance aspect of them would have been very helpful. And easy to build a program of endurance progression. 2. Also the way they strengthen the shoulder girdle for injury prevention might have prolonged my playing days. 3. Clean and press is quite a good mass builder. I can do it with barbells or dumbbells but it seems to work best with KB. 4. A great way for linemen to stay fit in the off season. I remember being handed the same running program as DBs and couldn't even do stage 1.

I think they are a good implement for various aspects of preparing for a sport training.
 
Brooks Kubik years ago said that “strength training was an art, not a science” and Jamie Lewis on his Chaos and Pain blog illustrated this with an article about 2 men who achieved a 500lbs bench press. Neil Hennesy and Serge Nubret respectively. Hennesy was a powerlifter and set about achieving this goal by doing the usual powerlifter stuff. Heavy partials, heavy tricep work etc etc. Nubret decided he would bench 225lbs for 25 sets of 25. Hennesy nailed 500lbs with and arched spine, elbows down as a powerlifter benches. Nubret smoked a 500lbs bench in jeans, with a flat back and flared elbows like a bodybuilder benches. So much for the science of strength. It’s a given that a barbell reigns supreme for strength. I’m sorry but a 400lbs clean and jerk craps on anything us kettlebell lifters do but I don’t actually care. I’m not an elite athlete. I’m an ex meat head with a hernia in his belly button who is still in the game thanks to kettlebells and Iron Wolfs burpee programs. I don’t kid myself on that I’d smoke powerlifters or oly lifters but I know the kettlebell is a powerful tool. If anyone is concerned they are wasting their time then go and take up oly lifting etc. I’m not an elite athlete but I at least get off my a#@ and put in hard graft which is more than 99% of other 42 year olds in Glasgow, unless you count walking to the pub.
 
Kev said:
Brooks Kubik years ago said that “strength training was an art, not a science” and Jamie Lewis on his Chaos and Pain blog illustrated this with an article about 2 men who achieved a 500lbs bench press. Neil Hennesy and Serge Nubret respectively. Hennesy was a powerlifter and set about achieving this goal by doing the usual powerlifter stuff. Heavy partials, heavy tricep work etc etc. Nubret decided he would bench 225lbs for 25 sets of 25. Hennesy nailed 500lbs with and arched spine, elbows down as a powerlifter benches. Nubret smoked a 500lbs bench in jeans, with a flat back and flared elbows like a bodybuilder benches. So much for the science of strength. It’s a given that a barbell reigns supreme for strength. I’m sorry but a 400lbs clean and jerk craps on anything us kettlebell lifters do but I don’t actually care. I’m not an elite athlete. I’m an ex meat head with a hernia in his belly button who is still in the game thanks to kettlebells and Iron Wolfs burpee programs. I don’t kid myself on that I’d smoke powerlifters or oly lifters but I know the kettlebell is a powerful tool. If anyone is concerned they are wasting their time then go and take up oly lifting etc. I’m not an elite athlete but I at least get off my a#@ and put in hard graft which is more than 99% of other 42 year olds in Glasgow, unless you count walking to the pub.
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But the fight outside a pub is Glasgow is a good way go burn calories for 30sec. Or are my experiences of Glasgow more negative than the usual?
 
Kev said:
Brooks Kubik years ago said that “strength training was an art, not a science” and Jamie Lewis on his Chaos and Pain blog illustrated this with an article about 2 men who achieved a 500lbs bench press. Neil Hennesy and Serge Nubret respectively. Hennesy was a powerlifter and set about achieving this goal by doing the usual powerlifter stuff. Heavy partials, heavy tricep work etc etc. Nubret decided he would bench 225lbs for 25 sets of 25. Hennesy nailed 500lbs with and arched spine, elbows down as a powerlifter benches. Nubret smoked a 500lbs bench in jeans, with a flat back and flared elbows like a bodybuilder benches. So much for the science of strength. It’s a given that a barbell reigns supreme for strength. I’m sorry but a 400lbs clean and jerk craps on anything us kettlebell lifters do but I don’t actually care. I’m not an elite athlete. I’m an ex meat head with a hernia in his belly button who is still in the game thanks to kettlebells and Iron Wolfs burpee programs. I don’t kid myself on that I’d smoke powerlifters or oly lifters but I know the kettlebell is a powerful tool. If anyone is concerned they are wasting their time then go and take up oly lifting etc. I’m not an elite athlete but I at least get off my a#@ and put in hard graft which is more than 99% of other 42 year olds in Glasgow, unless you count walking to the pub.
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Has nothing to do w. the thread really, but... I am a Serge Nubret fan and this is not a dig on BBers or old school lifters or C&P, but I don't take a lot of stock in many BBing #s that are 50+ years old.
 
An actual conversation with my physician today. I was looking for a referral to a physical therapist for shoulder pain and told him I use kettlebells.

He asked me if I knew where kettlebells came from.

I said Russia.

“And do you know why they don’t use them in the US Military? Because they don’t work.”

Well, case closed.

And then he also told me not to barbell back squat.

That’s a no to both of those suggestions. Hahaha.
 
oukeith1 said:
An actual conversation with my physician today. I was looking for a referral to a physical therapist for shoulder pain and told him I use kettlebells.

He asked me if I knew where kettlebells came from.

I said Russia.

“And do you know why they don’t use them in the US Military? Because they don’t work.”

Well, case closed.

And then he also told me not to barbell back squat.

That’s a no to both of those suggestions. Hahaha.
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You should tell him the Army started using them recently.

(OK to be fair its just for sprint-drag-carry medley ... but still!)
 
I saw the entire video and nothing in the video was specifically speaking against Kettlebells. What they say is true and maybe for a slightly higher cost one could get a basic barbell set and get going. However, what is not highlighted is the portability of these implements. I have been able to remain consistent with my training, despite moving constantly between 3 house in 2 cities in the last 1 year, is because I can pack my kettlebells and move with them quite easily. I am usually running a specific program with a certain weight and I don't need to lug around the entire set of kettlebells with me. This makes it very convenient. Important rules of habit formation is to make it as easy as possible. I have my kettlebells under my desk. I can't avoid them and therefore I have been consistent with my training with them. I've trained barbell but I always had to go to the gym and the moment I had something else happen in life I would have to sacrifice my training because the time investment to go to the gym and get back suddenly starts looking very expensive. Especially if you have young kids and a demanding work life. Having said that I do agree that Barbells work and offer certain benefits that Kettlebells cannot. No matter how much I love the kettlebells, I cannot get my 500lb deadlift by simply training with KBs. When the time comes I will get some barbells but until then KBs make my life easier (only to stay on track :)).

I've seen Geoff's comment above about wrestler strength. You can see a lot of Indian wrestlers who are crazy strong, and all they train with are Heavy Indian clubs (joris) and Mace clubs (and a few other traditional implements) - which build crazy strength in all directions (i suppose barbell is limited in how it can improve strength one sees in day to day life). And you will see a lot of wrestlers who do not look shredded and at first sight you might not think that these guys are not strong but their whole body is a single unit. Not sure if I am making sense with that statement. Their strength comes from their body being whole - like one solid unit and I dont know if purely barbell training can get you that kind of strength. Also I do feel that a lot of traditional barbell focused S&C has evolved to cater to the very physical sports such as NFL, Rugby, etc. Therefore that key question needs to be addressed before choosing the implement - what is your S&C for? accordingly you pick the right tool or a combination of tools.
 
I can't speak for NFL, but Rugby is not purely "strength" based.
Of course a baseline is needed, but I'd assume that exists in the player before they make it to the big leagues.
Maybe an A+A routine would serve them better at that point, whilst maintaining their limit strength with a handful of barbell lifts done easy strength style.
 
Starlord said:
But the fight outside a pub is Glasgow is a good way go burn calories for 30sec. Or are my experiences of Glasgow more negative than the usual?
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20 years ago maybe. Depends on the pub. I don’t hang out with egos and assholes like Bruce Lee once said.
 
Geoff Neupert said:
Late to the party here, but I agreed with them when I was -

(a) A competitive Olympic lifter (like they are), and

(b) Their age

(c) Until several wrestlers changed my mind
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Grapplers are just monsters. I do judo and even my sensei who is pushing 60 is a monster. In fact I don’t technically do judo I do break falls and practice a lot of tapping while being strangled and choked and arm barred. I’m hoping years of lifting will actually amount to me winning at some point but I love it either way.
 
oukeith1 said:
An actual conversation with my physician today. I was looking for a referral to a physical therapist for shoulder pain and told him I use kettlebells.

He asked me if I knew where kettlebells came from.

I said Russia.

“And do you know why they don’t use them in the US Military? Because they don’t work.”

Well, case closed.

And then he also told me not to barbell back squat.

That’s a no to both of those suggestions. Hahaha.
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Me personally I'd find a new physician.
 
mvikred said:
I saw the entire video and nothing in the video was specifically speaking against Kettlebells. What they say is true and maybe for a slightly higher cost one could get a basic barbell set and get going. However, what is not highlighted is the portability of these implements. I have been able to remain consistent with my training, despite moving constantly between 3 house in 2 cities in the last 1 year, is because I can pack my kettlebells and move with them quite easily. I am usually running a specific program with a certain weight and I don't need to lug around the entire set of kettlebells with me. This makes it very convenient. Important rules of habit formation is to make it as easy as possible. I have my kettlebells under my desk. I can't avoid them and therefore I have been consistent with my training with them. I've trained barbell but I always had to go to the gym and the moment I had something else happen in life I would have to sacrifice my training because the time investment to go to the gym and get back suddenly starts looking very expensive. Especially if you have young kids and a demanding work life. Having said that I do agree that Barbells work and offer certain benefits that Kettlebells cannot. No matter how much I love the kettlebells, I cannot get my 500lb deadlift by simply training with KBs. When the time comes I will get some barbells but until then KBs make my life easier (only to stay on track :)).

I've seen Geoff's comment above about wrestler strength. You can see a lot of Indian wrestlers who are crazy strong, and all they train with are Heavy Indian clubs (joris) and Mace clubs (and a few other traditional implements) - which build crazy strength in all directions (i suppose barbell is limited in how it can improve strength one sees in day to day life). And you will see a lot of wrestlers who do not look shredded and at first sight you might not think that these guys are not strong but their whole body is a single unit. Not sure if I am making sense with that statement. Their strength comes from their body being whole - like one solid unit and I dont know if purely barbell training can get you that kind of strength. Also I do feel that a lot of traditional barbell focused S&C has evolved to cater to the very physical sports such as NFL, Rugby, etc. Therefore that key question needs to be addressed before choosing the implement - what is your S&C for? accordingly you pick the right tool or a combination of tools.
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I feel like you've moved the goal post away from the intent of the video, which is high level SnC for athletes.

In regards to wrestlers, I put zero stock into Indian wrestlers what so ever. I have a wrestling background from school and representing my regiment.

Every wrestler I've ever known has used the barbell. Amongt other implements for SnC.

Wrestling strength as you call it is due to being adept at manipulating bodies. But a lot of wrestlers (100% of wrestlers I personally know) use barbells and other implements to build maximal strength and power. Then they use their sports specific work to get good at applying that strength and power.

Rugby players are also very strong and good at moving bodies as well but they aren't limited by weight classes.

But you're 100% correct. They didn’t say anything bad about kettlebells and even stated they ate great for general exercise purposes. As well as a useful tool for high level SnC.
 
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svencandy said:
I can't speak for NFL, but Rugby is not purely "strength" based.
Of course a baseline is needed, but I'd assume that exists in the player before they make it to the big leagues.
Maybe an A+A routine would serve them better at that point, whilst maintaining their limit strength with a handful of barbell lifts done easy strength style.
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No-one said rugby was purely a strength based sport.

But try playing rugby without spending time under the barbell. I don't know any respectable team that does.

I'm assuming if A&A programming would work better than many of them would be doing that.

I doubt there is ever a stage in a rugby players career where more maximal strength wouldn't be beneficial.

Perhaps where the pursuit of more strength takes too much away from the adaptive energy needed for sports specific work. But you can never have too much strength in rugby.
 
Yes, I agree to an extent.
When the English team won the world cup in Australia, every forward could bench press 200kg+
No one in the Aussie team could. I think the max was 180kg, and most much lower.
That game was decided by a penalty goal. Due to the large strength discrepancies and the flip of the coin final result, how much did strength/barbell work play into that? Obviously other factors at play such as game plan, skills etc. But its food for thought. Maybe once you tap out your genetic strength potential with barbells (ie: no progress), other modalities should be included.
The only time in a Rugby match where max strength could be useful is a scrum, and even later in the game, you recovery from play will have an affect on that, that's why I mention A+A.
Its a strength-endurance game. You need both. Barbell may excell in the strength contium, just like LSD excellent in the endurance contium.
But in rugby you are expressing strength in off balanced positions, in a unilateral matter for the most part.

So back squats probably are necessary (Jonah Lomu used to back squat a car engine growing up - RIP, he changed the game forever). But bench press on top of that? Wouldn't A+A snatches be better, for recovery, and explosiveness?

Michael Hooper, Australian Rugby captain, and at this moment, one of the best players in the world, doesn't do any weights. I play cricket with him every year on January 26th, so maybe I will ask him if he does kettlebells.
I know he does a lot of sprinting and callisthenics, but no weights. A bit like Herschel Walker I guess.
 
mvikred said:
I saw the entire video and nothing in the video was specifically speaking against Kettlebells. What they say is true and maybe for a slightly higher cost one could get a basic barbell set and get going. However, what is not highlighted is the portability of these implements. I have been able to remain consistent with my training, despite moving constantly between 3 house in 2 cities in the last 1 year, is because I can pack my kettlebells and move with them quite easily. I am usually running a specific program with a certain weight and I don't need to lug around the entire set of kettlebells with me. This makes it very convenient. Important rules of habit formation is to make it as easy as possible. I have my kettlebells under my desk. I can't avoid them and therefore I have been consistent with my training with them. I've trained barbell but I always had to go to the gym and the moment I had something else happen in life I would have to sacrifice my training because the time investment to go to the gym and get back suddenly starts looking very expensive. Especially if you have young kids and a demanding work life. Having said that I do agree that Barbells work and offer certain benefits that Kettlebells cannot. No matter how much I love the kettlebells, I cannot get my 500lb deadlift by simply training with KBs. When the time comes I will get some barbells but until then KBs make my life easier (only to stay on track :)).

I've seen Geoff's comment above about wrestler strength. You can see a lot of Indian wrestlers who are crazy strong, and all they train with are Heavy Indian clubs (joris) and Mace clubs (and a few other traditional implements) - which build crazy strength in all directions (i suppose barbell is limited in how it can improve strength one sees in day to day life). And you will see a lot of wrestlers who do not look shredded and at first sight you might not think that these guys are not strong but their whole body is a single unit. Not sure if I am making sense with that statement. Their strength comes from their body being whole - like one solid unit and I dont know if purely barbell training can get you that kind of strength. Also I do feel that a lot of traditional barbell focused S&C has evolved to cater to the very physical sports such as NFL, Rugby, etc. Therefore that key question needs to be addressed before choosing the implement - what is your S&C for? accordingly you pick the right tool or a combination of tools.
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Heavy bb focus in NFL S&C, with some variety since some guys will have their own trainers, some will be required ( in their contracts ) to participate in scheduled training, and some can do whatever they want, or none.
 
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