simple and sinister builds beyond belief!

Mark Blakemore

Triple-Digit Post Count
I  asked Pavel if the daily practice could be paralleled to the Law of Compound Interest.  He related a Russian Theory and it was very similar in nature.  Btw, I remember a time Einstein was asked to name the most powerful force in the Universe. He replied, The Law of Compounding.  This program is one that will stand the test of time!!
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Simon, i did the simple standards from mid january to mid february almost daily thus 4 weeks, six to seven times a week. Inspired by Michael Corrales i used a heart rate monitor while performing my sessions. My average bpm was in the 130-140 and max after the last swing set in the 160-168 range.

I do not think that there are any benefits to do the standards daily, i (or my ego) just wanted to make sure to own the standards. More Clarificationis gives Pavels Blog "the patience of strength"  where Al Ciampa nails it:

S&S swings is alactic work+aerobic recovery “IF” you do not crunch the rest intervals, whether driven by ego or, “it feels easy today”. For the plan to work, you have to stimulate the body for the adaptation you seek.

That you can do more work in less time (condensed S&S swings), on any given day, does not mean you are stimulating the proper cellular adaptations, and so, you will hit a wall in your training, re: not make it to the next bell size, or not achieve 100 x swings in 5 min with your current bell.

The “thing” that you should be trying to stimulate with this protocol is doing more work under aerobic-dominant fueling. This takes patience and discipline. Rest longer, be patient, do the work, and over a short period of time, you will increase your work output while still being aerobic. Then, you can “test” while fueled predominantly by glycolysis. Whatever your test outcome, go back to training under aerobic fueling.

Just because glycolysis is always there to kick in, like a turbo charger, and increase your output, does not mean that this is also the goal of your training. So, rest longer… do not forcefully reduce your rest periods… let your body adapt and your rest periods will natrually decrease… I’m certain that I read this some place before…. ;]

There is some anecdotal evidence that if you train properly and patiently, you can achieve 100 x swings in 5 min while being aerobic. So, train to a HR, or lactate threshold, or rest longer during your swings—whatever you like to call it–but training is different from competing.

So while i know now (or i think to know, but who knows) a little bit more on the topic then three months before i would not do it anymore. The sessions (swing part) where never easy but not extremely hard also. It took a great effort, and i felt the build up of lactic accid in the glutes and lower back. The get ups afterwards where a comming down walking through the park, because the 32k is almost 50% of my max in this lift.

As i said earlier the "from simple to sinister" schedule was a good step in the right direction, as i let my heart rate to come down in the 115-120 range. I did 8 consecutive weeks on with 40kg and hit the five minute standards twice after four weeks, but on a rpe scale i would put them to a 9 (1-10).

The summer is comming over germany...grat.

 

 
 

inarchetype

Double-Digit Post Count
^ So, following Harald Molz's excellent explanation, it brings up a point about which I have always been unclear.

In the explanation above, which is entirely consistent with my understanding from the book and previous clarifications here, and is how I have worked the program when I do it,  it is at least implicit that the time standards for swings are for a "test" effort, not for accomplishing swings in the recommended way for training sessions.   As such, one could test to standard on the swings while still requiring, say, eight minutes to perform the sets as prescribed for the training sessions.

I had always been working under the understanding that the standards were relative to accomplishing the requisite swings at the level of effort prescribed for training (alactic/aerobic).

While I made the standard for "simple" relatively quickly on the getups, I never progressed beyond the 24 for the swings doing them that way (although I was throwing in some days of doing swings with the 32 anyway occasionally, just out of impatience, and they went fine).  I concluded that getting to simple on the swings using S&S that way under that understanding would either take me a very long time, or simply required a much broader aerobic base than I was bringing into the program.

Did I misunderstand the standard?

 

I'm not actually on S&S right now because I'm focusing on a couple of other things for reasons related to specific nearish-term goals (building a base of running miles plus conservative PTTP deads/S.P.), but plan to return to it, and would very much appreciate clarification regarding the standards:

Is it correct that the standards relate to a "test" effort, utilizing whatever balance of energy systems is required, or is it to get the work done within the specified time at the training pace?
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Greg, the explanation above is from Mr. Ciampa. I missed to  put his statement in brackets or using cursive letters. He is an expert in energy systems of the human body. Read Pavels "from simple to sinister" and "the patience of strength" and the comment section of each.

 
 

Telegramsam

Double-Digit Post Count
Greg, FWIW, my reading of S & S is very much that the standards should be achieved during 'standard' training, not any test days. Indeed, S & S doesn't have any test days; even the all-out effort with a KB the size below is not a 'test' as such.

Not only this, but one should continue with the same bell once a standard is achieved until you are able to achieve them comfortably. Only then does one move up in KB size for swings, or introduce it for sets of TGUs.
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
half an hour ago i hit a pr of 65kg in the get up with a dumbbell on both sides.

There ar a few chances that this has something to do with simple and sinister.

An expected wth-effect.

greetings from westwood.
 

inarchetype

Double-Digit Post Count
Telegram Sam-

That was consistent with my reading of the book and some of the guidance here as well, but I have seen what seem to be conflicting ideas about that posted here at various times.

Perhaps it would be useful to ask for definitive clarification regarding whether the simple standard for swings is intended to mean 100 in five minutes any way you can (with good form), or 100 for five minutes at the intensity recommended for training (staying within the "alactic/aerobic envelope"), as it were.

These would result in quite different standards, I think.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Is the 'test' in S&S the continuous swing day? Every 2 weeks or so when working the 32?

 
 

Pnigro

Triple-Digit Post Count
I agree that the book is unclear about whether we should aim for the standards during regular training or "test" ourselves every few days to see if we can achieve the 5 minutes - 1 minute - 10 minutes goal.

My swings always take 6-7 minutes during regular training. I only get near the 5 minute mark if I push myself and compress the rest periods.
 

Stuart Elliott

More than 500 posts
I completed my first session of Simple to Sinister today with the 40kg, following Pavels 3 month template  and looking forward to where the journey takes me. I'd been using the 32kg for simple since the start of Jan and was able to progress slowly to be 'Simple', despite have a new addition to the family in early Feb with all the sleep deprivation that comes with a new born. Infact I think this helped me progress as I was in no rush and happy to work slowly to my goal. Simple had to fit in around my work and family life (commuting,school runs, nappy changingetc etc), which it did! I also saw the physical changes Harald posted  once I worked in the 32kg, but it was the ability to still do Simple around a very busy schedule and at very different times of the day that really impressed me about this programme , be it 11pm or 5.30am , whenever there was a free 30 mins in my day I'd bash out Simple 4-6 days aweek and still feel fresh (as you can be with a new born). 

Back to today, sleep is better and as of the last few weeks I can bang out Simple in the desired time, which brought me to the what next question. Do I stay the course for Sinister or cycle in KB Strong,which I completed last summer with the 24's.  I plumped for Strong (with 24's), because I enjoyed the double KB work, but after a couple of sessions (last week) I was missing those daily swings and the 24's felt light in my hands compared with the 32, but I'm not ready to take on the 32's for Strong. Last night the obvious hit me, stay the course to Sinister, Strong and the 32's (goal is 48's) can wait. Doing my 1st session of Simple to Sinister this moring I felt back in the grove, even with the 40kg which I had only swing for 2 x 10 once towards the end of simple. These almost daily swings are addictive and fit so well in to a busy schedule, I'm also starting my sport season (I play cricket) so the  waving swing prog (and retaing TGU's on those  days) works really well for me. 

Anyway just my ramblings, but needed to put my thoughts on paper. I'll post an update after a few months on Simple to Sinister.
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Yesterday i got six reps on the freestanding handstand pushup. I attribute that balancing skill, stability and strength to my practice on heavy, slow motion (up to one minute), low rep get ups.

Have a nice weekend.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Wow! Did you practice them before, ie could you do them anyway and before S&S? How heavy for you is heavy? Can't remember exactly but did you post in the last few months about making the sinister goal? That is a helluva big what the hell moment, good stuff.
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Hi Alistair,

The ability to perform them i had long before (maybe since 3-4years). Since eight weeks  i started to practice pistols, handstandpushups, bridging, mobility work (splits) while lunch break at work (20 minutes) and gtg gripper work throughout the day.

An ability to perform something special seldom comes out of nothing. SAID principle. But i would state that high quality get ups really shorten the learning curve to get to a free standing handstand. The accumulated get ups make me  more stable and stronger in the "overhead" handstand position.

Most of the time i practice my get ups with 50kg  (When i consider my last tested max of 65kg that equals 77%) make every step and transition really slow and breathe steadily. My bodyweight is 94kg.

On 12th april i ended an eight week cycle on the "from simple to sinister" plan with 40kg. Currently i swing the 48kg bell 10r x 10s 2-4 times a week with long rests in between. The beast is really another animal. So i am not after the sinister goal in special, but come gradually to it in the long run.
 

thegame

Still New to StrongFirst Forum
I saw harald's video on youtube,he looks like carved out of wood. He has totally tamed the bulldog.

I have been doing S&S since april,when 32 bell became easy to swing i experienced the same effects like everyone.Right now i am searching for bulldog to move the program forward.
 

Pavel

Founder and Chairman
Master Certified Instructor
Harsh, please do me a favor and review S&S on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Kettlebell-Simple-Sinister-Pavel-Tsatsouline-ebook/dp/B00GF2HP9G/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1436471390&sr=1-1&keywords=simple+and+sinister
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Harsh,
nice image to be a carver. Strengthtraining as a craft. So many valuable hints and experiences from all the craftsmen and craftswomen in strength on this forum.
 

thegame

Still New to StrongFirst Forum
hello everyone,

My goal is to pull maximum weight in deadlift.
I want to ask which stance should i choose keeping in mind that bulk of my training consists of swings only.

Thanks
 

lokate

Triple-Digit Post Count
Hè guys, i was wondering if simple and sinister would be a good supplement for my martial arts training. I dont know how to say it but it seems to simple.
Maybay its because i dont know better then to put weight in the bar everytime its to light and thats the way to get stronger but if i read these storys here it seems that everton is getting stronger in other exercises to.
I read for example that kettlebell strong is a good routine to get stronger.
What is the secret of s and s?
Or do you guys train with normal weights to?
As i said i am a martial artist in the frist placebo and want a good and simple routine that makes me stronger (notice, i dont want to have to big of muscles) and leaner.
I dont have acces to weights. I Just have 2 kettlebells (20 and 24 kilo), a pull up bar and a dipstation.
Last question, how much time does the routine take? Because of my other training i dont have hours to do other things.
 

DaveMik

Double-Digit Post Count
Howdy,

the secret to S&S is doing it as prescribed.

This link has answers to all your questions about S&S or S&S versus ROP: http://www.strongfirst.com/users/lokate/



Dave
 
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