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Simple & Sinister - General discussion

SUOMI-PUKU

Level 6 Valued Member
Was looking for a suitable thread for general S&S discussion but couldn’t really find one that was a catch-all, rather lots of separate threads.

I quite enjoy the other threads for The Giant / RoP / STRONG! etc where people can just generally chat and share experiences of the program as they are going through it without it needing to be directed question and answers.

If there’s a thread already then I’m happy to have a link to that one and I will bump it with whatever general thoughts I’ve got.

I’ve started S&S after a really hectic time in my life where I’ve had a few non-training shoulder and low back problems due to poor posture and not taking care when picking up and carrying my daughter!

Decided to start right back at the start where now I’ve done a few sessions with the 16kg of 2HS and TGU, working from 4 sets of 10 up to 8 sets of 10 so far. Once I get to 10 sets of 10 I’ll start incorporating the 1HS before then step-loading up to 24kg.

Last session I really got the ‘refreshed’ feeling that I want after workouts, rather than feeling beaten up by whatever I was sporadically doing before. It was nice, was in a high all day and helped me be productive in work/life afterwards. Sadly I don’t have time to run it more than 3 times per week so we’ll see how that goes or if I will need to try and find time to add more.

Plan on staying the course on S&S for the next few months to half a year or so, until I’ve owned the 24kg which is my heaviest bell (own 2x16 and 2x24).

Anyone else here currently running it? And anyone at the beginner level like I am?
 
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Thanks for starting the thread. I've been doing S&S sporadically. I'm currently step-loading 24 to 32kg, doing 4 sets/reps with the 32kg.

For me, the challenge of 1H swings has always been hand grip. I'm glad S&S 2.0 advises to split a 10 rep set into 5+5 or 7+3 if grip is an issue. This has helped me quite a bit.

Admittedly, I'm not able to follow everything to the letter. I tend to spread the session out throughout the day during breaks from the desk.

I was a little disappointed about lack of results when I completed the 24kg. But the 32kg more than makes up for it. Just adding 1 set of the 32kg I can feel a real difference in my lats and overall health.

I have struggled to incorporate the 32kg in Goblet Squats. I have found after doing just 5 reps with the 32kg, I have pretty gassed out and it takes me a while to pass the talk test. I wasnt sure how to step-load in the Goblet Squat - currently, I am doing 24kg, 32kg, 24kg. Next step would be 24kg, 32kg, 32kg I guess.
 
Yes, absolutely running S&S. I am working with The Bulldog (88lbs/40kg) at the moment. Following S&S by the book (S&S 2.0) has worked for me over the past four years. My progression has been slow and steady since starting. It's worth noting that during that time, I have had little to no help from outside sources. That is, I have learned through self-observation. S&S works.

Up until you get to the 32kg bell, you can run it up to almost daily. That said, progress can be made on three days a week. As long as you feel confidence in your strength, keep step loading according to the book.

The hamstring gains are a gamechanger. Also, the mentality behind the program is key. Slow and steady, step loading over time. If you apply this to other areas of life, in parallel to your strength practice, good things seem to happen.
 
I am running S&S. Getups as close to every day as I can manage, currently 5-6 days a week, and swings about half that often. A few press days and also trying to deadlift along with.

Getups: I am rehabbing shoulders that, although they let me bench press, didn't do well with overhead movements for the last few years, so I started my getups with a 6 kg and have been gradually working up to heavier weights. I followed a loose progression of: light weight, light weight for more reps, light weight for multiple reps each side, add a rep or two with a heavier weight, then half-and-half with the heavier weight, then all with the heavier weight but greatly reduced volume, and so on. Saturday I did 3 reps each way with a 14 kg kettlebell and will hope to get 4 reps each way with that weight later today. I am unable to kneel without pain, and also unable to push my elbows down on hard ground without pain, so I have a thin mat for my getups onto which I add a second layer of squishier stuff to be able to push down on my elbows, and I only do getups to the hand and no further as no amount of padding will suffice for my knees.

For my presses, I again started very light and am currently up to pressing an 18 kg bell for reps. My right shoulder tends towards what I think is impingement, and the best therapy seems to be paying a lot of attention to my pressing groove. Done the right way, I have no shoulder pain whatsoever, but if I mess up my groove, then sometimes it hurts - so I pay close attention.

NB: The elbow thing is weird - I do skin-the-cats, pullups, presses, heavy deadlifts, etc, and none of that bothers my elbows, but a long drive in the car and my elbows will hurt just from having been on the arm rests in the car. I've never sought a medical explanation - pressure on them hurts, using them for weight lifting does not and never has.

I'm OK with swings. (You'll find a video on my YT of me using a 44 kg for a set of 10 reps.) I'm currently mixing 1h swings with 24 kg and 2h swings with 44 kg, something like 10 reps x 4 sets of 1h swings and 10 reps x 2 sets of 2h swings on my swing days.

I hope that answers your question. I am "running it" and definitely feel like a beginner at getups. If I had an ego in this I might be troubled by using such light weights because I've done a 40 kg getup in the past, but I'm into "do the best you can with what you have, where you are" so that's what I'm doing.

-S-
 
Slow and steady, step loading over time. If you apply this to other areas of life, in parallel to your strength practice, good things seem to happen.
I have come to love the idea of slow and steady progress now.

When I first started with kettlebells I was obsessed with progressing every session, jumping straight in with double C+P programs like The Giant and I did realise my strength - getting to 24kg x 10 one arm press and 24 kgs x 5 reps for double C+P. Probably need an asterisk beside them as not sure on the form.

Sadly I also trained through niggles and I don’t think I ever had good overhead mobility or a good-enough hinge and paid the price a bit in my shoulders and low back on both cleans and presses.

Inspired by Geoff Neupert’s training pyramid I realised The Giant wasn’t a beginner program, and thought I’d start in the right place. Rather than moping about the fact that I always get niggles when training!
 
I hope that answers your question. I am "running it" and definitely feel like a beginner at getups. If I had an ego in this I might be troubled by using such light weights because I've done a 40 kg getup in the past, but I'm into "do the best you can with what you have, where you are" so that's what I'm doing.

-S-
I love that quote and attitude to training, definitely resonates with myself when I’ve lifted the 24 overhead 10 times it originally seemed quite silly that I’ve penned in September or later being when I eventually get to doing all my TGUs with the 24.

But currently the 16 feels like a good workout for my abbreviated S&S sessions so far so why rush away from that if I can get a workout with a lighter weight and have more energy to spend on and with my family/work/wife. Especially when the program calls for slow step loading, I clearly can’t be trusted from past experience to manage my own programming!
 
The Giant wasn’t a beginner program
For me, the fundamentals are (almost) everything.

For instance, S&S is a beginner's program, yes? I daresay no beginner is going to be doing timeless sinister anytime soon.

So, I think S&S is a fundamentals program.

The distinction between beginner, advanced, and fundamental programs are always important to me.

Master the fundamentals and you become advanced. Start at the fundamentals so a solid foundation is built. After that foundation one can explore advanced programs.

I, personally, am not a strength training guy. I practice strength for life, so fundamentals are where I stay. If I do start doing activities outside that box of 'fundamentals', I try and apply fundamental concepts to those experimental activities: talk test, nasal breathing, avoid the burn, slow and steady, etc.
 
Been running S&S for 2023 using 4kg steps. Owned the 20kg now integrating the 24kg. Love the step loading and feeling of really owning a weight and being to knock it out everyday. Also being able to really polish form and technique.

The one change I’ve made is to go heavier with two hand swings. It was just too easy. I now go a bell up and add the next one up as per the program so currently 8x20 2x24 for one handed. 8x24 2x28 for two handed. This is still not challenging for 2 hands but feels
Like it actually gives some feedback. Also using 28kg for prying goblets. Halos with 24kg 28kg halos hurt my wrists.

Great program. Really enjoying it.
 
Funny this thread should arise right as I'm starting another round of S&S (20K swings, 14K TGUs). Started S&S back when it was 1.0 and shot for 5-6 days a week with a timed session on Fridays. Admittedly, the weights were lighter (16K), I was younger (now 71) and my form would have made an SFG shudder. I've run the program in 6-week blocks many times since then and I'm still a beginner. Sigh. At one point, I thought Simple was an achievable goal and maybe it still could be if that was all I was doing but while I enjoy the training, I also like skiing (x-country and downhill), mountain biking, hiking, and 4-5 hours of ping-pong weekly. Easy to brush off the last as just a frivolous game but it's become quite demanding as I've improved.

I credit S&S, plus A+A, some powerlifting for enabling me to do the things I enjoy and maintain a reasonable level of fitness, plus anti fragility. I've had more than a few incidents where the accumulated S&S work has saved me from serious injury. TGUs, much as I like them and see the benefit, have been a challenge (specifically, roll to elbow) and currently I'm dealing with a psoas/hip issue so every other session, I'm crawling instead of TGUs. I'm a slow learner but I've figured out that with many things, the dose makes the poison, as Paracelsus wisely noted. I try to stay focused on playing the long game, though when I'm powder skiing, that seems to go out the window. Indeed, consistency trumps intensity but it's handy to be able to dial it up infrequently or when the need arises.
 
I have been running S&S since early January. I was starting from scratch as a beginner, although I had done some kettlebell work in the past, i.e. swings. I started out with a 12kg bell and found I had some mobility issues on my left side with my TGU's. So it took me a little time to work through that. But by the beginning of Feb, I was doing swings and TGU's with the 16kg. I'm pretty much following the book to a tee. I practice 5-6 days a week and taking 8kg steps. Right now I am in Week 10 doing 2 set with the 24kg. It took some patience going from 16kg to 24kg in the TGU's, but now I can handle it without a problem.

I really like the program and have seen improvement in strength. I think the key is consistency, no matter how many days a week you can put into it, just stick with the process.
 
@Steve Freides are you taking a detour from powerlifting or running it alongside?
Thanks for asking.

I am in an off-competition cycle for now. I did a lot of PL meets between ages 65 and 67-1/2. No squats, no bench presses for now. When I get back to feeling up to it, I will resume learning the Olympic lifts as I was in the Fall and earlier this year. My main work, giving music lessons, tends to be busiest around this time of year so I also need that to slow down a little and then hitting the Oly lifts for a solid block of time, maybe 6 months, would be great.

I think probably a meet this Fall and again next Fall, when - God willing and the creeks don't rise - I'll be about 68-1/2 and then 69-1/2. For whatever reason, the national record for DL only in my next age group is 177.5 kg, but it's 185 kg for DL in a full PL meet. I'd like to go after both of those. (There are zero state records for New Jersey in my next age group, so whatever I do will set those.) A 400 lb deadlift at age 70 and bodyweight 150, raw, sounds like a good target for 2 years down the road. My current best is 170 kg, 375 lb, set last Fall.

So I'm mostly taking a detour but everything I'm doing now should make me stronger and healthier for my next competition cycle, which will likely be something like mid-August to mid-November, and what I'll do is ease back into the powerlifts in June then hit them more seriously in the 3-month comp cycle leading up to the meet.

-S-
 
My first run on S&S was about a year ago worked up to 32kg swings and 24kg TGU. But I think I moved up in weight too fast with bad form which caused some nagging knee issues that was holding me back. Decided to deload and work on my form. Now on my second run at S&S I been taking my time to really own the weight before moving up.

My current swing is at 24kg and been working in the 32kg for one set over the last few weeks. TGU has been at 16kg and working in the 24kg for one set. Currently doing this about 5-6 days a week. Having more patients with the process has really helped this time around.
 
For me, the fundamentals are (almost) everything.

For instance, S&S is a beginner's program, yes? I daresay no beginner is going to be doing timeless sinister anytime soon.

So, I think S&S is a fundamentals program.

The distinction between beginner, advanced, and fundamental programs are always important to me.

Master the fundamentals and you become advanced. Start at the fundamentals so a solid foundation is built. After that foundation one can explore advanced programs.

I, personally, am not a strength training guy. I practice strength for life, so fundamentals are where I stay. If I do start doing activities outside that box of 'fundamentals', I try and apply fundamental concepts to those experimental activities: talk test, nasal breathing, avoid the burn, slow and steady, etc.
Yeah it seems great for getting everything up to a decent enough standard to then tackle something more complex - which is pretty much what it says to do in the book before coming back to look at sinister if you want to.

So beginner program is maybe a bad way round to word it though since, you’re right, you can get very far if you just stick with it. It is “a good program for a beginner” rather than a “beginner program”.
 
Yeah it seems great for getting everything up to a decent enough standard to then tackle something more complex - which is pretty much what it says to do in the book before coming back to look at sinister if you want to.

So beginner program is maybe a bad way round to word it though since, you’re right, you can get very far if you just stick with it. It is “a good program for a beginner” rather than a “beginner program”.
I'm also looking at this concept when applied to other slices of life: finances, housekeeping, martial arts.

What's the fundamental thing to focus on that a beginner needs to know and the expert masters that will get you most of the progress.

For instance, in finances: simply doing a spread sheet and tracking every expenditure shows you where you can cut costs for a better future. That's the fundamental thing that will get most people a good, long way.

In strength training it seems to be a moderate, progressive approach to a select few exercises, allowing progression over years, not weeks or months.
 
I'm recently going back to S&S again after taking a bodyweight training hiatus. The fault lies with my mindset/unrealistic expectations and not the program. The hardest part of the program for me are swings. I've never liked them all that much although when I work my swings hard, I lift heavy objects so much better in daily life.

I think a key to S&S is not comparing yourself to others workload. For example, I'm on my feet everyday for 9 to 10 hours oftentimes I top out at 15,000 steps. My frequency of S&S sessions will probably be different than someone who sits at a desk all day. Just do the program as often as your energy and obligations allow.
 
Managed to get a session in this morning, naturally woke up very early before the family so thought I would make the most of it.

Took my time and fit in 10 sets for both 2HS and TGU followed by some hanging (grip was smoked though!). Will fit in some mobility work throughout the workday today. I usually break the QL straddle into a few stretches (sitting in straddle, seated hamstring reaches for each leg, then a single leg QL stretch or on a box/chair) as I’m unable to sit in it and focus on the stretch. I also plan to do the 90/90 stretch and Brettzels as often as I can.

Going to continue on with this weight and 2HS for a while, working on technique/breathing for my swings and slowing down my get ups, until April when I start introducing the 1HS.

In the new StrongFirst S&S course there is programming that involves still using the partial get up even after accomplishing the full get up. Anyone here doing this?
 
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A great thread. I will chip in.
We all (probably) have read the book - but this thread gives a good examples of specific implementations.
Because almost no-one does S&S by the book.
I currently run a S&S version from Strongfirst for BJJ.
  • Sets of 5 swings instead of sets of 10 (my bell weight is 24kg)
  • Light TGU-s for me: 16kg
  • Medium TGU are 24kg for 10 singles, 5 per side.
  • Heavy - TGU to the hand, with the same 24, 5 sets of 2 reps per side at the moment.
  • All my TGU are on 2 minutes.
  • I train 3 times a week.
  • My warmup + mobility is 20 min, my swings are 20 min, my TGU are 20 min. I close off with about 15 min stretching session.
  • I do my goblet squats with 32 kg for 5-10-15 reps in the warmup.
  • My session is usually 1 hour 15 - 20 min long.
  • I am 66kg, almost 42 years old.
I would say the biggest change is not TGU and swings, but doing them productively pain free.
I can swing more than 24kg for 5, but it will get my shoulder inflamed on a long run.
My grip is not a challenge. Neither is my condition. So - I am trying to figure out a sustainable baseline at the moment.

In short - I was surprised that it was not my strength or conditioning that stopped my progress, but overuse injuries.

My personal 5 cents: I think strategies described for people who have achieved simple timeless (in the Simple and Sinister v2 book) - reduced frequency, de-loading and working back up, using light sessions, - can be used much earlier, depending on the body-weight, age, and recovery abilities of a person.
 
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My personal 5 cents: I think strategies described for people who have achieved simple timeless (in the Simple and Sinister v2 book) - reduced frequency, de-loading and working back up, using light sessions, - can be used much earlier, depending on the body-weight, age, and recovery abilities of a person.
This is really interesting. The book makes clear, and often repeated on the forum, don't mess with the program, do as is. The program works. Pavel seems to say this in the book, but any changes need to be based on adequate experience and knowledge of your unique body and how it works and recovers rather than knowing more about programming. It seems less about changing the program as making it fit you in terms of frequency and intensity, almost always backing off and going slower than written rather than faster.
 
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