Kettlebell Simple & Sinister = Pressing Strength?

[Anders]

I agree with what Papa Georgio says in his last post.

It is easy to overestime one's own ability to construct a good training program. And it is easy to underestimate Pavel´ s abilities to make a good program.

In addition think about the moral strength you will develop if you stick to one program for a long, long time. Sticking to one thing for a long long time and accepting boredom is the root to a lot of good things.

I also agree with the thought of first finding a goal, and then finding a program to reach that goal. If you want to be good at S&S, then you should do S&S. If you want to have a great press, then you should follow a press program. The best thing would probably be to follow S&S until you reach a modest level (like simple or solid) and then switch to another program to achieve a certain press level.

I write this as one who has hopefully left behind the program hopping tendencies But almost every week I feel the temptation to start on something else or to modify But I think this is not the solution, I think program hopping is the root to a lot of frustration.

 

[Gepet]

So just add some pressing at whatever volume you think won't interfere with S&S.

S&S is a minimalist program, and as such, it can't cover all the bases comprehensively.

But it's low impact enough (until you get to heavy KBs) that you can add additional work.

Or swap out the TGU for presses every other workout.

@Steve Freides had a post about when is it okay to modify a program. If I recall correctly, he thought the swings were the more core piece of S&S.

I would be very interested in reading that. Any idea where to search for it?

 

[Gepet]

What is your priority?? If it's hitting timeless or timed s and s do s and t twice a week

Just to clarify, are you suggesting S&T twice a week and S&S on the other days or add S&T after S&S twice a week? Thanks in advance!

 

[watchnerd]

In addition think about the moral strength you will develop if you stick to one program for a long, long time. Sticking to one thing for a long long time and accepting boredom is the root to a lot of good things.

I also agree with the thought of first finding a goal, and then finding a program to reach that goal. If you want to be good at S&S, then you should do S&S. If you want to have a great press, then you should follow a press program. The best thing would probably be to follow S&S until you reach a modest level (like simple or solid) and then switch to another program to achieve a certain press level.

Well, a lot depends on your training history, work capacity, and ability to self program.

If one is new to kettlebells, but not to strength training, S&S may be driving KB-specific skills more than physical adaptations until the bells start to get pretty heavy.

And if one is accustomed to 60+ min training sessions, only doing S&S may be conditioning regressive.

I had no problem reaching Simple by doing it 3 days a week and combining it with barbell and light bodyweight work on the same day.

And once I learned the TGU, I treated it as loaded carry from a programming POV, swapping it into the rotation once every 3 sessions.

However, novices may get derailed.

 

[watchnerd]

I would be very interested in reading that. Any idea where to search for it?

Here:

https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/when-changing-a-program-is-and-isnt-ok.6439/

"Can you change the strength portion, the getups, and still have S & S's conditioning benefits? I think you can, and we have forum members who've followed S&S-like programs with less of a focus on the getup that prove this point. Can you substitute another strength move for the getup? Yes, e.g., try the military press and, at the end of each set, with the weight still at the top, perform a windmill or bent press."

 

[watchnerd]

Yeah, obviously S&S has some deep flaws because there's no pressing. While were on it, let's figure out a way to get a couple pullups and barbell deadlifts in there too.

+1 to adding some rowing / pulling for sure.

But deadlift and swings are both hinges, so you can pick one or the other for a given session.

A heavier squat than a goblet squat is the other area that plays to tweak if one is accustomed to heavy barbell squats.

I've done full S&S + BB front squats (quad dominant) at the end and it works fine if one has already been squatting for years, being mindful of net tonnage.

 

[watchnerd]

When I was combining S&S with other modalities, this is what I did, 3 x a week:

Hinge: S&S swings protocol
Press: push ups, press (alternate each workout)
Pull: rows (push up days), chin ups (press day)
Squat: BB front squats (press day), BB overhead squats (push up day)
Carry: alternate between TGU, suitcase carry, and farmer's walk

Cooldown: McGill Big 3 ab work, stretches per S&S + thoracic mobility

[Combine the press and pull into pairs to save time, i.e. alternate sets of push ups and rows. Eliminate goblet squat if BB squatting to save time]

Total workout time: ~45 min for main portion, ~60 min with cooldown

Active recovery days: LISS cardio, mobility work (yoga, Pilates)

 

[John K]

That looks good, although 10 x 10 is high volume for Push-Press.

Yes it is.

 

[Gepet]

If one is new to kettlebells, but not to strength training, S&S may be driving KB-specific skills more than physical adaptations until the bells start to get pretty heavy.

This! Due to covid19 lockdown, I couldn't train with barbells any more so I bought myself S&S and a KB. Thats when I discovered how bad my balance was and it took ages before I could do getup well. In the process, while gaining KB specific skills I definitely lost strength and muscle (visibly) but I hope that as I start progressing through KB weights, I will experience physical adaptations. I'm also considering adding a couple of days a week of "how to train your slow fibers" to encourage some tricep hypertrophy for purely aesthetic (ego-related) reasons

 

[watchnerd]

This! Due to covid19 lockdown, I couldn't train with barbells any more so I bought myself S&S and a KB. Thats when I discovered how bad my balance was and it took ages before I could do getup well.

I had a similar experience with balance.

On the other hand, my core and erector spinae were more than adequate as the KB load was much less than a BB, so I didn't have to wait for hypertrophy to ensue in those areas.

Due to covid19 lockdown, I couldn't train with barbells

I'm so glad that my home gym was well-equipped before the virus.

It may be rational to have a barbell in the closet, just in case.

 

[Anders]

I am not there so I am just speculating, but this would be a valid situation if you want to change the program:

1) You have big muscles. You are new to kettlebells, so you are doing S&S, but you are afraid that you will loose muscle mass when you are on the program. What to do ? I am not sure.

Still the most common scenario here on the forum, the way I see it, is that people are impatient and then they want to train many things at a time and they hope to achieve all things more quickly than if they just followed the "standard and boring" program.

It is something I also hear in connection with BMI (Body Mass Index). People criticize this measure because it does not take into consideration that some people have a lot of muscles and are still quite lean, and that they would be described as "obese" according to the formula. Again they forget that most people does not have a lot of muscles on them, and that the BMI works out wonderfully and correctly for 95 percent of people.

**
4 years ago I attended a one day Kettlebell course with Strong First. On that day I pressed 32 kilo once. I jumped from program to program after that and at most I have pressed 32 kilo four or five times. If I had just bitten into the sour apple and done S&S to reach simple and then afterwards done ETK who knows how strong I could have been. Impatience never pays off. Well. I am 35 years old and I think I am gradually starting to realize this

**
My new mantra for myself is: "I am not special." I mean this in a good way and a bad way. If S&S works well for most people, it is highly likely that I will be included in this group "most people". If "most people" cannot both train S&S five times a week, kettlebell Military press, barbell squats and deadlifts at the same time and make great progress well then unfortunately I will also most likely be included in this category of "most people".

 

[NormanOsborn]

I had a similar experience with balance.

On the other hand, my core and erector spinae were more than adequate as the KB load was much less than a BB, so I didn't have to wait for hypertrophy to ensue in those areas.



I'm so glad that my home gym was well-equipped before the virus.

It may be rational to have a barbell in the closet, just in case.

I'm desperately trying to figure out how to build a home gym. Even if it means training outside, which is no fun in Scotland for at least half the year. Unfortunately the prices for weights, barbells etc are ridiculous. You're talking £160 for a couple of 20 kilo Olympic plates!

 

[watchnerd]

I'm desperately trying to figure out how to build a home gym. Even if it means training outside, which is no fun in Scotland for at least half the year. Unfortunately the prices for weights, barbells etc are ridiculous. You're talking £160 for a couple of 20 kilo Olympic plates!

Ditto here for the weather in Seattle.

I hear you on the costs, and mine are higher than average as I compete in weightlifting, so the costs are even worse -- 200 kg worth of IWF-spec bumper and change plates is somewhere north of $1000, IWF-spec barbells $700-$1000 each. Not to mention the rack, lifting platform, etc.

The latest 2.5 kg competition *collars* I ordered were $175/pair.

But normal people don't need all that...

Craigslist is full of cheap used iron and 'good enough' barbells.

 

[watchnerd]

1) You have big muscles. You are new to kettlebells, so you are doing S&S, but you are afraid that you will loose muscle mass when you are on the program. What to do ? I am not sure.

What to do is pretty basic.

You choose what to maintain and what to progress each training cycle.

I spent years building up my barbell strength and weightlifting skills to be able to compete. I'm reluctant to see that erode beyond what Mother Nature and aging already throw at me.

In the summer time, when my garage gym is warmer and upcoming weightlifting competitions are in the fall, I choose to progress my barbell work, and maintain my KB.

In the winter time, when I prefer to train more in the warm house, I progress my kettlebell work and maintain my BB.

Does that mean I progress on my KB work more slowly than if only did KB work?

Yes, although not as badly as one might think given carry over from other strength, power, and conditioning work.

Does that bother me?

No, not at all. And I find the seasonal change of pace interesting.

 

[Trever]

May I know what your bodyweight is?

I’m 51 yrs old, 5’8” and 138lbs. I can’t speak for the OP, but for me, my main reason for not yet fully committing to S&S is the fact that I don’t have a specific goal. My goal is kind of general. I want to continue getting stronger and better at using kettlebells. I have no need to lose weight but would like to add more mass as I train. Currently I regularly do BB deadlift (I have worked up to 2xbw in the past) , A+A snatch with 24kg, armor building complex, TGU’s with 28kg.
I’ve just recently started doing more swings and considering whether I should commit fully to S&S to reap more benefits in the long run. I’m part way through the book now.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Just to clarify, are you suggesting S&T twice a week and S&S on the other days or add S&T after S&S twice a week? Thanks in advance!

S and s twice a week to thrice a week.. S and T separate days

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I’m 51 yrs old, 5’8” and 138lbs. I can’t speak for the OP, but for me, my main reason for not yet fully committing to S&S is the fact that I don’t have a specific goal. My goal is kind of general. I want to continue getting stronger and better at using kettlebells. I have no need to lose weight but would like to add more mass as I train. Currently I regularly do BB deadlift (I have worked up to 2xbw in the past) , A+A snatch with 24kg, armor building complex, TGU’s with 28kg.
I’ve just recently started doing more swings and considering whether I should commit fully to S&S to reap more benefits in the long run. I’m part way through the book now.

I'd say write down a few goals you have then one by one attack them..

I can tell you this, timed simple is definitely attainable for you

 

[Trever]

I'd say write down a few goals you have then one by one attack them..

I can tell you this, timed simple is definitely attainable for you

Thanks Mark
In a couple weeks I have a 2 week backpack trip in the mountains that will be tough and always knocks about 5-8 lbs off me. After I get back I’ll have to figure out some specific goals. Hypertrophy might be the first one I need?

I’ve been pretty consistent for the past 3-4 months with the exercises I mentioned earlier, and I’m definitely getting stronger and a little thicker during that time.

 

[NormanOsborn]

Ditto here for the weather in Seattle.

I hear you on the costs, and mine are higher than average as I compete in weightlifting, so the costs are even worse -- 200 kg worth of IWF-spec bumper and change plates is somewhere north of $1000, IWF-spec barbells $700-$1000 each. Not to mention the rack, lifting platform, etc.

The latest 2.5 kg competition *collars* I ordered were $175/pair.

But normal people don't need all that...

Craigslist is full of cheap used iron and 'good enough' barbells.

Good point about Craigslist. I've been looking at Ebay and Amazon.

 

[Deleted 4908]

.. is it enough to develop pressing strength? Or should I add some Clean and Press?

Hi, @NormanOsborn
Please, do yourself a favor and commit to the program. The gains will come and magic will happen later on.

I can relate to your thoughts because I am also on the S&S ride. Currently working towards "Simple" after achieving Timeless Simple a month ago.

As you have read in the book (but maybe forgot?) S&S is not about specialization (E.g. The Press). S&S is a truly GPP.
If you want to be good at pressing you have to press a lot (read about it at the forum or in ETK) and speaking from experience I find it challenging (not impossible) to find spots in the S&S week with 4 - 5 sessions (before Timeless Simple)

Feel free to reply.

Best regards

/Martin Joe