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Kettlebell Simple & Sinister = Pressing Strength?

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pet' said:
Hello,

@NormanOsborn
S&S and any relatively low pressing volume (if we exclude GTG which finally generates a lot of volume) pair very well. You do a good choice IMHO !

Here is an article about the proper technique for the regular press up:
www.strongfirst.com

One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pushup | StrongFirst

Done well, the push-up will give great strength gains and can be done anywhere at any time. But first, we need to make sure you can do one great repetition.
www.strongfirst.com

Here is the power push up:
www.strongfirst.com

Plans for Building Powerful Pushups | StrongFirst

It's no secret good pushups can build total body strength, but for maximal carry over to sport & life, you need to add explosive power.
www.strongfirst.com

Below for the OA version:
www.strongfirst.com

Unlocking the One-arm Push-up | StrongFirst

Mastering the fundamentals and using them for guidance is key. Here is how this perspective created my own aha moment regarding the one-arm push-up.
www.strongfirst.com

Here what you can achieve with proper technique and GTG with high volume :
www.strongfirst.com

Strength in Numbers: A Case for Pushup Endurance Training | StrongFirst

With push-up endurance training I maintain absolute strength without having to train it on a regular basis. This keeps us strong without the risk of injury.
www.strongfirst.com

Kind regards,

Pet'
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Great links, man. Thank you. :cool:
 
NormanOsborn said:
@Pavel Macek I like the idea of alternating between TGU's and Push-Press. But with the best will in the world, there's no way I could do 10 x 10 Push Press, even on every second day. That kind of volume would wreck my shoulders and elbows.

Is it possible to modify that program with a lower volume of Push-Press? Thank you.
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Where are you currently in your regular S&S - what weights are you using, sir?
 
Just putting pieces together (I'm slow)... but if you have rotator cuff issues, pressing is going to be a very narrow needle to thread until you address the issue.

Kettlebell - Best Kettlebell exercises for Rotator Cuff?

I've had issues with my right shoulder for years. Training with Kettlebells, particularly S & S, has helped, but can anyone recommend specific KB exercises to strengthen the rotator cuff? Thanks.
www.strongfirst.com
 
Pavel Macek said:
Where are you currently in your regular S&S - what weights are you using, sir?
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I can swing the 32 one-handed, although only for small numbers of reps. Most of my Swings with the 32 are done with both hands.

My TGU is embarrassing. I'm still using the 16kg.

If you think I should concentrate on getting my TGU up to 24 or even 32, I will abide by your decision, sir.
 
NormanOsborn said:
I can swing the 32 one-handed, although only for small numbers of reps. Most of my Swings with the 32 are done with both hands.

My TGU is embarrassing. I'm still using the 16kg.

If you think I should concentrate on getting my TGU up to 24 or even 32, I will abide by your decision, sir.
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As I mentioned in my article - meet "Timed Simple" first, sir.
 
I use pressing especially because I get lazy and don't always keep up with my S&S (also have three kids running around so it isn't always afe to do S&S.) Pressing is a quick, "easy" and quite safe way to "stay in the game" and develop useful strength without having to do a full out workout. I honestly don't know what anyone would be missing though if they were sticking to S&S strictly and never did presses. A press has the special feature of "bent arm strength" but that's about it over the TGU. The press is to the TGU like a sentence is to a paragraph.

Again, having said that, pressing is so easy and convenient and yields so many quick benefits relative to the effort invested that it certainly is not a bad "add-on" to S&S ever. I'd just do what 'Pet said and keep the volume low so you don't overdo it on your shoulders.
 
Hello,

I agree with @runninggirevik .

For a while, I was doing GU @36 and 40, for 60kg bdw. Back then, I could barely press the 28 on both side.

Now, I can press 1/2 bdw (I add plates to the 28).

A few years ago, I did Simple.

Recently, just before lockdown, I did ROP with 24. Then I tackled S&S again. After a few sessions only, I was doing Timeless Simple again.

So I think there is more carryover from C&P to TGU than from TGU to C&P

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
AndyMcL said:
Is it as effective as a pressing specific program? Probably not, but with TGU you get a large amount of time under tension with a significant weight.
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As someone who presses a lot, it's definitely not as effective as a pressing program.

The main reason? The sticking point at the beginning of a shoulder press is by-passed with the floor press that starts the TGU.

But, yes, it's better than nothing.
 
watchnerd said:
As someone who presses a lot, it's definitely not as effective as a pressing program.

The main reason? The sticking point at the beginning of a shoulder press is by-passed with the floor press that starts the TGU.

But, yes, it's better than nothing.
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I would second this...I think the TGU is fine for improving the press as a beginner, but quickly stalls out. For instance when I started, I couldn't press the 24. Once I could complete Timeless with it, I could press the 24 2-3 times per side, but even once I was using the 32 for TGUs, that number didn't go up (and the 32 wouldn't even *budge*) until I started doing actual presses via the Armor Building Complex, and later with Dry Fighting Weight, after which I could do 8-9 with the 24 and 2 per side with the 32.
 
NormanOsborn said:
After a lot of thought, and some excellent advice from you guys, I've decided to stick with Simple & Sinister until I at least reach Simple. Which, given my current rate of progress, will probably be around the time of the US Presidential Election...in 2024.

MASA: Make America Sinister Again. :)

I love S & S because it is indeed very simple to follow. Warm up, 10 X 10 Swings, 2 X 5 TGU, and Bob's the bloke who buggers your Aunty. The only reservation I have is the lack of Pressing. And yes, I've read that TGU's are classified as a Static Press. But given the relatively low volume, and the necessity to keep the weight the same until one can do the full range of motion, is it enough to develop pressing strength? Or should I add some Clean and Press as well?

As always, thanks in advance.
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I’ve been doing S&S consistently and after building up TGU strength with 32kg (3 reps straight per arm) I could press the 24kg for 5 reps. Now I’m using 40kg for TGU and I’m able to press the 32 for a single. For me, S&S has built a foundation of strength, pressing not too far behind but strength at a certain level is specific so if you want to build a strong press you will eventually need to press.
 
watchnerd said:
Yep, the low rack position of a KB press makes the initial start a major sticking point.

As compared to a barbell OHP, where most people hit the sticking point halfway up.
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Yeah, especially if you use hip draaaahhhve in the hole of the press. I usually stick somewhere right above my hairline with the barbell.
 
Tom Watson said:
I’ve been doing S&S consistently and after building up TGU strength with 32kg (3 reps straight per arm) I could press the 24kg for 5 reps. Now I’m using 40kg for TGU and I’m able to press the 32 for a single. For me, S&S has built a foundation of strength, pressing not too far behind but strength at a certain level is specific so if you want to build a strong press you will eventually need to press.
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The real PITA with the shoulder press, with any implement, is that once one is past neurologically-driven strength gains, it has to come from hypertrophy.

And that's a bear, as the consensus is that the shoulders need a lot of volume, from different angles, to induce a lot of hypertrophy. But at the same time, they're sensitive to being overworked with too much volume and prone to dysfunction if things aren't *just right*.

As opposed to, say, your traps or glutes, which can be hammered and brutalized practically as much as you like.
 
watchnerd said:
The real PITA with the shoulder press, with any implement, is that once one is past neurologically-driven strength gains, it has to come from hypertrophy.

And that's a bear, as the consensus is that the shoulders need a lot of volume, from different angles, to induce a lot of hypertrophy. But at the same time, they're sensitive to being overworked with too much volume and prone to dysfunction if things aren't *just right*.

As opposed to, say, your traps or glutes, which can be hammered and brutalized practically as much as you like.
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That's why even Pavel himself stated the Bench Press was the best exercise for upper body strength. Because it took so much volume to significantly increase the KB Military Press. Which leaves one vulnerable to injuries or over training.
 
NormanOsborn said:
That's why even Pavel himself stated the Bench Press was the best exercise for upper body strength. Because it took so much volume to significantly increase the KB Military Press. Which leaves one vulnerable to injuries or over training.
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I'm going to still disagree with him on the bench.

I'll put leg-elevated ring push-ups with a dip belt up against the bench any day for hypertrophy + better scapular motion + serratus anterior.

;)
 
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