Kettlebell Singles or double for hypertrophy and strength?

[Tellya]

Hello everyone. Had a chat today with my brother on the above topic (the hours sure do fly by at mine...). We were discussing doing C & P with 2 x 24s or 1 x 32KG.

The same number of reps are performed for the thought experiment. Say, we do ladders in roughly the same total time with very similar rest periods between rungs and ladders. So, we are comparing:

i) 2 times 24KG for 1,2,3,4,5 reps times 5

ii) C & P Left then Right for 1,2,3,4,5 reps x 5

Which would give the most pressing strength - in terms of 1 rep max with a single KB - and hypertrophy?

My brother went for the doubles. He thinks the higher overall nervous system effort for these lifts would mean a strong er'command' to the muscles when doing a heavy single for a strength test.

I erred towards the 32KG because I feel that training at higher intensity with each arm means more intensity is possible in a single C & P test.

Incidentally, which of the above would lead to the most strength as a 1 rep max in a double C & P?

 

[North Coast Miller]

I'd say the doubles will give better strength in the hinge pattern from double cleans, the heavier unilateral will do more for pressing strength and probably hypertrophy as well, if the two loads are trained for the same rep/set structure.

 

[Anna C]

Interesting question(s). I'd say the single arm 32kg would build the most pressing strength. 2x24 would be best for hypertrophy, and I think also best for the most strength as a 1 rep max in a double C&P.

 

[Tirofijo]

I think your ratio of double 24: single 32 is off if you are equalizing reps.

Everyone will be different but in my case a strict press one rep max of 32 might be equivalent of a 5 or 6 strict press rep max with double 24s.

(Never tested both at the same time so I can't be sure but doing ROP with the 32 would be a lot harder than doubles with 24kg, for me at least. )

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Which would give the most pressing strength - in terms of 1 rep max with a single KB - and hypertrophy?

Different Training Protocols

Training for Limit Strength and Hypertrophy involve different training protocols.

Limit Strength

The protocol for increasing Limit Strength is when loads of 85% plus of your 1 Repetition Max are preformed for low Repetitions, 1 - 5 per set, with long rest periods between sets (3 minutes or longer).

Hypertrophy

Increasing muscle mass require higher repetition. Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Programs use 8 Repetition per set and short rest periods between sets (60 seconds between sets) are the most effective.

However, the downside to only performing a Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Program is that the increase in muscle mass is offset by the decrease in Strength and Power.

However, there are a couple of solution that allow you to increase muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing Strength and Power...

Conjugate Training

This means training different type of Strength at the same time. Strength Training is a generalized category of: Strength-Endurance, Hypertrophy, Speed, Power, and Limit Strength.

Research has demonstrated combining different type of Strength Training into the same program, provides a synergistic effect; metaphorically speaking, 2 + 2 end up equaling 5.

Dr Michael Zoudos' Conjugate Training Research

Zourdos found a Conjugate Training Program Limit increased Limit Strength when one day was set aside for...

1) Hypertrophy Training

2) Power Training

3) Limit Strength Training

Zourdos' research reinforcing what the Westside Powerlifing Method has implemented since around 1980.

Dr Brad Shoenfeld Hypertrophy Research

Schoenfeld's research regarding increasing muscle mass say the same as Zourdos; three things elicit the greatest Hypertrophy Training response.

1) Mechanical Tension: Limit Strength Training

2) Metabolic Stress: Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training, aka "The Pump".

3) Muscle Damage: At some point "Overreaching", pushing the muscles to the limit. then allowing them to recovery.

Dr Jonathan Oliver Cluster Set Hypertrophy Protocol

Oliver research found an interesting way of increasing muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing Power and Limit Strength, via Cluster Sets.

Fairly heavy load performed in a movement for 1 - 5 Repetition in a "Cluster". Allow around 20 seconds of rest, then preform another "Cluster" of 1 - 5 Repetitions.

Exercise Example:

Cluster Set 1:

a) 4 Repetition

Rest 20 seconds

b) 4 Repetition

c) Rest 20 seconds

4 Repetition

Rest 20 seconds

d) 4 Repetition

Rest 20 seconds

e) 4 Repetition

Stop. Cluster Set 1 is completed.

Rest 3 minutes the preform Cluster Set 2, then 3, etc.

Cluster Set Repetitions

Total in Each Cluster Set: 20 Repetition

Each Repetition need to be preformed explosively. Once Power drop, Stop the set.

The reason for preforming each repetition explosively is to innervate/train/develop the Fast Type IIa and "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber; they are exhausted in.

That means the Fast Twitch stop working and your "Endurance" Slow Type I Muscle Fiber take over, which is counter productive the objective.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

Which would give the most pressing strength - in terms of 1 rep max with a single KB - and hypertrophy?

There are too many variables to make such a comparison.

Doubles place a different kind of load on the body, one of the reasons we don't typically recommend pairing a doubles program with a barbell deadlift while single bell pressing program works well in that context.

How strong you become by doing a program of each is also going to depend on how weak you were in certain areas when you began.

For overall strength and hypertrophy using only kettlebells, doubles win, provided you meet the entry requirements.

-S-

 

[Maine-ah KB]

Hypertrophy in generally occurs when there is a systemic work load, with volume and density are taken into account. Look at @Fabio Zonin "bodybuilding" program If It Flies Right, It Looks Right: My Journey to a Bodybuilding Competition | StrongFirst
Hypertrophy occurs from the MASS-IVE amount of volume that occurs, for instance the bench which is has 83 repetitions in week 1 (when specialized variety is considered) and the deadlift has 112. if you take the average of all 4 lifts its about 400-500 repetitions of full body exercises per week, (assuming my maths right.)
following his template and do the one arm press as your main and double/seesaw as you specialized variety. oh and if hypertrophy is your goal, squat. like more than seems reasonable.

 

[the hansenator]

Conjugate Training

This means training different type of Strength at the same time. Strength Training is a generalized category of: Strength-Endurance, Hypertrophy, Speed, Power, and Limit Strength.

Research has demonstrated combining different type of Strength Training into the same program, provides a synergistic effect; metaphorically speaking, 2 + 2 end up equaling 5.

Kenny Croxdale

As a simple way to implement this with kettlebell presses: What if you alternate days of 3-5 rep sets with a 5ish rm kb and days of 6-10 rep sets with a 10ish rm kb?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

As a simple way to implement this with kettlebell presses: What if you alternate days of 3-5 rep sets with a 5ish rm kb and days of 6-10 rep sets with a 10ish rm kb?

Sounds good. Try it and see how it works.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kozushi]

There are too many variables to make such a comparison.

Doubles place a different kind of load on the body, one of the reasons we don't typically recommend pairing a doubles program with a barbell deadlift while single bell pressing program works well in that context.

How strong you become by doing a program of each is also going to depend on how weak you were in certain areas when you began.

For overall strength and hypertrophy using only kettlebells, doubles win, provided you meet the entry requirements.

-S-

Yet the two main SF programs are using singles. There must be a reason for this.

 

[Steve Freides]

For overall strength and hypertrophy - using only kettlebells - doubles win. For overall strength and hypertrophy, the barbell wins.

-S-

 

[Bill Been]

Who is stronger:
Bert Macklin who can press double 36s, and can presses a single 40, or;
Bobby Newport who can press double 32s, and can press a single 44?

Who’s likely to get bigger:
Burt, whose normal approach to training has him putting 158lbs over his head or Bobby whose normal approach to training has him putting 97lbs over his head?

 

[krg]

Doubles place a different kind of load on the body, one of the reasons we don't typically recommend pairing a doubles program with a barbell deadlift while single bell pressing program works well in that context.

Hi Steve,

Can you expand on this point?

If you compared with training with just a barbell (and there are lots of programmes like that) then that seems (to me) more akin to double KBs + deadlift than single KB + deadlift. Or is it the ballistic components of KB lifts that give them a unique aspect?

cheers

 

[Steve Freides]

@krg, nothing fancy here - the double press is more work for the lower back and therefore pairing it with barbell deadlifts might be too much work for the lower back for some people. Part of the value of a single arm press and a barbell DL is the difference between them - we know how valuable single-sided work is and a program of strictly heavy, two-armed barbell lifts benefits from the addition of a single-arm press.

All things are possible under certain circumstances - my guidance here is general in nature.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

Limit Strength

The protocol for increasing Limit Strength is when loads of 85% plus of your 1 Repetition Max are preformed for low Repetitions, 1 - 5 per set, with long rest periods between sets (3 minutes or longer).

_Part_ of the protocol for increasing limit strength is when loads of 85% plus of your 1 Repetition Max ...

-S-

 

[Nate]

Who is stronger:
Bert Macklin who can press double 36s, and can presses a single 40, or;
Bobby Newport who can press double 32s, and can press a single 44?

Who’s likely to get bigger:
Burt, whose normal approach to training has him putting 158lbs over his head or Bobby whose normal approach to training has him putting 97lbs over his head?

Admittedly I'm not the expert so many here are, but with OP's scenario, it wouldn't just be looking at weight overhead (2*24=48kg vs. 1*32=32kg), but since there's a volume connection to hypertrophy, and OP's scenario called for 75 reps of 2*24 (3600kg total volume) vs. 75 reps left & 75 right (150*32=4800 total volume), the reps per arm are equated, but not load on the body. I don't know if the conclusions are any different, but the 1 arm is getting both higher total volume & higher local tension. Is this the reason for the saying "Until you have a 1/2 bodyweight press, ROP is our hypertrophy program."?

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Admittedly I'm not the expert so many here are, but with OP's scenario, it wouldn't just be looking at weight overhead (2*24=48kg vs. 1*32=32kg), but since there's a volume connection to hypertrophy, and OP's scenario called for 75 reps of 2*24 (3600kg total volume) vs. 75 reps left & 75 right (150*32=4800 total volume), the reps per arm are equated, but not load on the body. I don't know if the conclusions are any different, but the 1 arm is getting both higher total volume & higher local tension. Is this the reason for the saying "Until you have a 1/2 bodyweight press, ROP is our hypertrophy program."?

correct to a degree and double bell technique is different from single bell technique..

IMHO, one smart way to get stronger in kettlebell pressing is to build a strong barbell military press while maintaining your kettlebell press groove

 

[Kozushi]

I think to qualify to start ROTK (SF`s doubles program) you`re supposed to meet the full ROP expectations. Makes me want to meet them and then go onto doubles (alongside S&S of course as I`m not giving this up!)

 

[Bill Been]

Admittedly I'm not the expert so many here are, but with OP's scenario, it wouldn't just be looking at weight overhead (2*24=48kg vs. 1*32=32kg), but since there's a volume connection to hypertrophy, and OP's scenario called for 75 reps of 2*24 (3600kg total volume) vs. 75 reps left & 75 right (150*32=4800 total volume), the reps per arm are equated, but not load on the body. I don't know if the conclusions are any different, but the 1 arm is getting both higher total volume & higher local tension. Is this the reason for the saying "Until you have a 1/2 bodyweight press, ROP is our hypertrophy program."?

Very good point, Nate. I sorta wandered off the originally described program.

Now that I’ve returned to the conversation everybody else is having, riddle me this:

- is a Clean & Press with double 24s one rep, or two?
- is a Clean & Press with a single 32 one rep, or half of a rep?

The OP’s example treats the double C&P as two reps - one for each arm - then uses that assumption to say he has volume matched the two programs by stipulating 5 x 1,2,3,4,5 for each movement if you count each arm. Is this a valid way to volume match two programs?

I’m not disparaging. It’s actually surprisingly difficult to volume match two or more programs. Researchers struggle with this in experiment design all the time.

 

[Hung]

i gained 2 kg when switch to practice snatchng the 32 k, after 7 months of doubles. switch between double and single work maybe better than just sticking with one