305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
That would've been the overhand version. And yeah, you do seem to have some hyperextension going. You got a good eye!
Bodyweight Skin the Cat and Work-In-Progress Front Lever
- Thread starter Steve Freides
- Start date
- Status
August 17, 2017
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sizzlefuzz
Level 6 Valued Member
Ring training is so much fun! I was playing on them at my friend's house the other day and he highly recommends them as cross-training for handbalancing. I'm looking at putting together a frame to mount some rings in the garage sooner than later. I find skin the cat to be very relaxing overall.
@sizzlefuzz, hanging them from your garage rafters should be pretty easy and not require constructing a frame. We're going to hang a second set here, using a pair of 1/2" eyebolts that I apparently bought for this purpose years ago and never used.
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sizzlefuzz
Level 6 Valued Member
@Steve Freides I will double check how sturdy the rafters look. Mine look more like 2x4s as opposed to yours (that I can tell from the angle on the video).
the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
My garage rafters aren't very sturdy so I bought 3 2x6s and put them up across the garage with the rafters so they're tripled up. It was kind of a headache getting them in but they're real sturdy and there's no problem hanging from rings.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
@Steve Freides
You could get in parallel to the ground by tucking one of your leg (and maintaining the other straight). Once you hold some second, you change the tucked leg. That way, you can get a little more work volume
Kind regards,
Pet'
@Steve Freides
You could get in parallel to the ground by tucking one of your leg (and maintaining the other straight). Once you hold some second, you change the tucked leg. That way, you can get a little more work volume
Kind regards,
Pet'
@pet', I have done as you've described - just not my favorite thing because you can't really fire your glutes when you leg is bent. I can hold parallel with one leg straight pretty easily already, and the other leg isn't completely tucked, it's at 90 degrees.
I do these before I deadlift, and I am wary of doing more than just "playing" at them because they tire my abs and I need my abs to be reasonably fresh for deadlifting. My plan is to do more of them on my variety/off days, but today was one of them and I didn't do any ring work because I was too busy doing other things, so we'll have to see how that goes. My next competition cycle starts tomorrow in preparation for a meet on November 11, so now the deadlift will be even more a priority than it's been over the summer, which may be a lot less ring work. I just have to try it out and see how I feel.
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I do these before I deadlift, and I am wary of doing more than just "playing" at them because they tire my abs and I need my abs to be reasonably fresh for deadlifting. My plan is to do more of them on my variety/off days, but today was one of them and I didn't do any ring work because I was too busy doing other things, so we'll have to see how that goes. My next competition cycle starts tomorrow in preparation for a meet on November 11, so now the deadlift will be even more a priority than it's been over the summer, which may be a lot less ring work. I just have to try it out and see how I feel.
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305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
@Steve Freides : I believe Pet's point is to pick a variation suitable for your level. With this one, you're not retracting your scapula properly and you're so far off parallel it looks like an inverted hang on a bar.
If you can't do it properly to reap the benefits, regress to a suitable choice. I personally don't see why you'd want to groove wrong technique.
Pet just isn't blunt enough to say it. He worked up to his own Front Lever so certainly advice I'd heed.
If you can't do it properly to reap the benefits, regress to a suitable choice. I personally don't see why you'd want to groove wrong technique.
Pet just isn't blunt enough to say it. He worked up to his own Front Lever so certainly advice I'd heed.
@305pelusa, I count my blessings that @pet' isn't blunt. What you do consider "retracting your scapula properly" in this movement? And why is it important?
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pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
Here are two short video of scapula retraction:
On a front lever, the scapula retraction permits to give more rigidity to the upper torso.
> That way, it is perfectly tight and prevent from rounding the back (horizontal plane).
> This gives stability because it will create tension on the shoulders.
> This tension will prevent from "digging" the upper torso (making a "U", sagittal plane).
> This tension will also activate pecs. These ones are involved to ensure a proper angle between arms and torso (sagittal & horizontal plane).
Anoter possible progression I already saw (but did not tested because it seemed to me harder) is : starting from a L-Sit pull up position. Then, pushing backwards on both arms while contracting the abs and keeping straight legs (so we hit an "horizontal" hollow position). Once here, keep pushing a little backward while tensing glutes to get an perfectly horizontal position. This version permits to fire the glutes all the way up.
I take advantage from this post to apologize if my words were considered blunt. It was really not my wish
Kind regards,
Pet'
Here are two short video of scapula retraction:
On a front lever, the scapula retraction permits to give more rigidity to the upper torso.
> That way, it is perfectly tight and prevent from rounding the back (horizontal plane).
> This gives stability because it will create tension on the shoulders.
> This tension will prevent from "digging" the upper torso (making a "U", sagittal plane).
> This tension will also activate pecs. These ones are involved to ensure a proper angle between arms and torso (sagittal & horizontal plane).
Anoter possible progression I already saw (but did not tested because it seemed to me harder) is : starting from a L-Sit pull up position. Then, pushing backwards on both arms while contracting the abs and keeping straight legs (so we hit an "horizontal" hollow position). Once here, keep pushing a little backward while tensing glutes to get an perfectly horizontal position. This version permits to fire the glutes all the way up.
I take advantage from this post to apologize if my words were considered blunt. It was really not my wish
Kind regards,
Pet'
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@pet', I was trying to say "thank you" to you for not being blunt - politeness is always appreciated.
Your suggestions about shoulder/scapula make sense to me. I am used to thinking about hollowing forward for 1APU and wheel rollouts and other things - hollow while facing the ceiling is something new for me.
Today I tried retracting my scapula some and getting tighter overall, and I was able to do my front lever closer to parallel. You gave a good suggestion and explanation - thank you very much.
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Your suggestions about shoulder/scapula make sense to me. I am used to thinking about hollowing forward for 1APU and wheel rollouts and other things - hollow while facing the ceiling is something new for me.
Today I tried retracting my scapula some and getting tighter overall, and I was able to do my front lever closer to parallel. You gave a good suggestion and explanation - thank you very much.
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the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
This thread has motivated me to start working on skin-the-cats. I have rings in the garage and decided to work on it while the weather is still warm. So far it's going well.
305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
The FL has many benefits, but one huge one is how much it strengthens scapular retraction. Few exercises can do it quite like the FL. If you hollow out your chest and just let your shoulders be pulled forward how gravity wants to, then it's just a stretch and little work is being done. It's not that the world will end, but you're losing a lot of the benefits.
A more important reason to regress is so you can actually hit parallel. That's where the torque is maximized and every single muscle needs to contract hard. To avoid parallel in favor of harder positions is akin to quarter squatting heavy weights. Like @pet' , I recommend regressing and hitting the true parallel and building strength in that ROM. It's a massive ego assault, but not terrible.
My latest effort. Doing StC HLR style, trying to pike up with straight legs. Going around yet further. Trying to keep my shoulders pulled back more on the FL, and sticking out only 1 leg at a time. You'll see me remember to pull the shoulders back.
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305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
Yeah you seem to go deep on the StC.
As far as the FL, I don't know if you're looking for advice but I recommend you film from the side. It's the only way to critically judge yourself. From this angle, it still looks to me like you're allowing your shoulders to be pulled forward. This protraction combined with T-spine rounding leads to a sort of "hump" on the upper back. This hump is desirable for the Planche (where you purposely protract):
planche - Google Search:
But I believe the FL is usually more of a flat line. You can do it with neutral shoulders, which might look more like this:
Note the very small concavity of the lower back (which means I'm keeping the abs engaged and a posterior pelvic tilt). And there's no large "hump" at the upper back. It's all rather "flat".
It's also possible to overdo it and actually pack and retract the shoulders. It's much harder. It's not necessarily better/worse it's just different.
Note how my shoulders are really pulled back and my chest would be pushed out.
Either of them (and anything in between) is fine. You just want to avoid the "hump back" FL where gravity is just pulling your shoulders forward and you end up looking more like this:
front lever gymnastics - Google Search:
Obviously this is all nit-picky. If your elbows are straight, your shoulders depressed, your hips open (hard to tell from your angle) and a posterior pelvic tilt (impossible to tell if you're wearing a shirt), then you're 99% better than everybody else. From the ones I can judge, you meet all of those so good stuff.
So feel free to ignore the extremely minute details. I've been very critical of my own FL these past years and it's finally at a point where I really like it. I just wanted you to get a sense as to the final few things you can look it on your own.
Good luck
As far as the FL, I don't know if you're looking for advice but I recommend you film from the side. It's the only way to critically judge yourself. From this angle, it still looks to me like you're allowing your shoulders to be pulled forward. This protraction combined with T-spine rounding leads to a sort of "hump" on the upper back. This hump is desirable for the Planche (where you purposely protract):
planche - Google Search:
But I believe the FL is usually more of a flat line. You can do it with neutral shoulders, which might look more like this:
Note the very small concavity of the lower back (which means I'm keeping the abs engaged and a posterior pelvic tilt). And there's no large "hump" at the upper back. It's all rather "flat".
It's also possible to overdo it and actually pack and retract the shoulders. It's much harder. It's not necessarily better/worse it's just different.
Note how my shoulders are really pulled back and my chest would be pushed out.
Either of them (and anything in between) is fine. You just want to avoid the "hump back" FL where gravity is just pulling your shoulders forward and you end up looking more like this:
front lever gymnastics - Google Search:
Obviously this is all nit-picky. If your elbows are straight, your shoulders depressed, your hips open (hard to tell from your angle) and a posterior pelvic tilt (impossible to tell if you're wearing a shirt), then you're 99% better than everybody else. From the ones I can judge, you meet all of those so good stuff.
So feel free to ignore the extremely minute details. I've been very critical of my own FL these past years and it's finally at a point where I really like it. I just wanted you to get a sense as to the final few things you can look it on your own.
Good luck
@305pelusa,
StC - deep. I've been gradually getting deeper and more relaxed at the bottom. The deeper I go, the better my shoulders feel afterwards.
FL - I agree with what you're saying. In general, the object is to fight gravity, so when facing down, e.g. a wheel rollout or a one-arm push-up, one should hollow out and hump up, and the opposite when facing the ceiling. A couple of seconds after I start the FL, I remember to pack my shoulders down - you can see the rest of me move up a little. That change definitely feels better and feels right.
That's how I'm looking at this. My scapular retraction just isn't up to the task at hand yet.
I appreciate the feedback and the conversation.
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StC - deep. I've been gradually getting deeper and more relaxed at the bottom. The deeper I go, the better my shoulders feel afterwards.
FL - I agree with what you're saying. In general, the object is to fight gravity, so when facing down, e.g. a wheel rollout or a one-arm push-up, one should hollow out and hump up, and the opposite when facing the ceiling. A couple of seconds after I start the FL, I remember to pack my shoulders down - you can see the rest of me move up a little. That change definitely feels better and feels right.
That's how I'm looking at this. My scapular retraction just isn't up to the task at hand yet.
I appreciate the feedback and the conversation.
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305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
Yeah I think you have the right idea. I will just reiterate that I'm merely guessing from the video. The angle can absolutely make your upper back look pretty rounded. And you have a shirt on, which makes it even tougher.
You know what to look for. All I can recommend is to film from the side and shirtless. You don't have to post it if you don't want (or do, I don't know). But just for your own benefit, it's the best way to troubleshoot.
You know what to look for. All I can recommend is to film from the side and shirtless. You don't have to post it if you don't want (or do, I don't know). But just for your own benefit, it's the best way to troubleshoot.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
In "addition" to the excellent @305pelusa 's posts, this is also possible to add time under tension by holding a straight position, but not parallel to the ground. A good one is to maintain a straight position with feet slightly higher than the head. This is a little bit easier (but not that much !) than a strictly parallel FL, but it worked for me like a charm.
As an assistance exercice regarding scapula and shoulder, push ups with feet elevated and shoulders in front of the hands (so a strong lean forward position) will help. It will help even more if done with a very slow motion.
In all cases, I love this thread ! You both do an excellent job
Kind regards,
Pet'
In "addition" to the excellent @305pelusa 's posts, this is also possible to add time under tension by holding a straight position, but not parallel to the ground. A good one is to maintain a straight position with feet slightly higher than the head. This is a little bit easier (but not that much !) than a strictly parallel FL, but it worked for me like a charm.
As an assistance exercice regarding scapula and shoulder, push ups with feet elevated and shoulders in front of the hands (so a strong lean forward position) will help. It will help even more if done with a very slow motion.
In all cases, I love this thread ! You both do an excellent job
Kind regards,
Pet'
IcyROM
Level 2 Valued Member
Is this you 305pelusa? That Front Lever looks really good it looks very full of tension and correct form.
How long does it take to get that?
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