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Kettlebell Slight tweak to snatch form

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North Coast Miller

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Have been experiencing more pinched nerve symptoms of late associated with overhead pressing and snatch. I have always internally rotated at the bottom of the swing/snatch (thumb pointed back) and normally have more of a neutral/pronated attitude at the top - hand is flat, thumb points directly to the side.

I've begun doing my snatches with more movement, internal rotation at the bottom to an outward rotation at the moment of transition both up and down, to more of an internal rotation at the top. I've noticed when the arm is internally rotated as much at the top of the lift as at the bottom, several things happen.

First, the joint has more potential movement. When the arm is internally rotated only enough to place the palm at horizontal, it still locks out front to back when the arm is directly overhead. If you internally rotate a bit more the arm can pass all the way through, at the top it isn't bottomed out.

I've also noticed that with static holds I experience fewer pinched nerve symptoms - tingling numbness in index and ring finger, slight pain between shoulder blades.

There is less overall rotation of the handle in the grip, so less trauma to the palm over time - though this is balanced out somewhat by the KB brushing the back of the forearm when it comes to rest - tugs the arm hairs and slides on the skin.

It feels like there is overall somewhat more lateral muscle activation across the upper back/rear delts, similar to the Arnold shoulder press. The lift feels more challenging at a given weight tho not notably so.

It becomes a little harder to fully lock out the arm as the elbow begins to point backward.



Anyway, food for thought. Doing them like this and converting some of my other static holds to be slightly more internally rotated has helped tone down the pinched nerve symptoms associated with overhead lifts. Have only been doing them this way for a couple of weeks, am not sure if this is a keeper. YMMV.
 
This is the "corkscrew" method used in GS.

I posted this video before but here it is again. You can see Ksenia using the corkscrew in her technique.

 
This is the "corkscrew" method used in GS.

I posted this video before but here it is again. You can see Ksenia using the corkscrew in her technique.



It definitely uses corkscrew, but at the top I roll it just a little more internally so that the elbow points out to the side. I'm not sure exactly why but this little change has made a huge difference. The one thing re GS that I adopted a long time ago is the initial knee bend and roll over the hand on the downswing.
 
I have noticed similar i.e. feeling of nerve impingement (one side only) when palm points more towards opposite shoulder, less to none when palm points forward even to slightly outside. I first discovered this doing pullups w/ neutral grip causing quite a bit of pain and almost none on straight bar.

I am seeing PT later today and plan to ask about this very thing.
 
This is likely only relevant to anyone else in that it shows how idiosyncratic and detailed a "glitch" can be. Saw my PT today and similar to when I saw her for my knee, she did NOT disappoint. After lots of testing strength, ROM, etc she found that subscapularis on that side very weak, barely firing at all and incredibly sensitive trigger point in the infraspinatus. So knuckles and elbow into the trigger point for awhile and I will work it more over next few day w/ hard rubber ball I have (actually a chew toy for dobermans and rottweilers and similar). Then she gave me a series of progressive exercises/movements to wake up and strengthen entire rotater cuff. She spent a focused 1 1/2 hours with me, slightly more than for the knees. Definitely time well spent.
 
There is a very wide arc to your snatch.
This can add to the "impact" of the snatch and your wrist is hyperextending at the top which loads the wrist/nerves etc... in a negative way.

Work on bringing the KB up in a more vertical path instead of "swinging" it to the top.

I have an article on taming the arc on the snatch in the articles section.
 
@Brett Jones

Rotating past 90° does cause a bunch of stuff to happen, starting with more difficult to lock out the elbow and the wrist. Not sure what happened to the arc...I don't think this is going to pan out long term. If it keeps causing issues I'll have to consider subbing out with other moves.

This is how I normally do them.

 
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Wow, that's a slow snatch. More GS than hardstyle, I'd say. Nothing wrong with that, just commenting.

For comparison, this is how I do it. (note: I am not so great at that taming the arc thing...)


 
Wow, that's a slow snatch. More GS than hardstyle, I'd say. Nothing wrong with that, just commenting.

For comparison, this is how I do it. (note: I am not so great at that taming the arc thing...)




I'll have to try upping my tempo some - maybe not being honest with myself.

Although, that clip is with a 50lber I normally use a 28 or 32 kg - upped my weights after "getting honest" following an older thread with you about low rep/heavier weight sets of snatches not being practical :)
 
The new video does look better.

I'd like to see a quick video of your swings.

For the snatch - you want to think of snatching it to the top so your arm and the KB reach top at the same moment - not the KB pulling your arm into a different position.

you can see in Anna's video there is a definitive "top" position
 
As the kb runs out of steam I drive my arm up alongside it a la corkscrew. This is definitely more GS than HS and certainly not SF, but also spares my palms a lot of grief. If I'm late there IS a bit of press at the lockout.

Here's the swing. Looks like I'm leaning back, but the camera's a little out of level.
 
I see a lot of "back" vs. hip extension there and the "timing" of the swing is off - your hips/body finishes at the top about the same time your KB finishes at the top instead of having your hips finish first and getting a good float out of the KB

Let you knees bend more and keep the KB/upper arms connected to your ribs longer so the hips finish first and then the KB comes up - this will really pay off in your snatches so the hips are driving the KB more
 
Thanks for the look, but to be honest, I don't feel like I have a problem with my swings or snatches aside from my pinched nerve, and that's affecting all my overhead movements. I'll attempt to bend my knees more but I'm unwilling to allow my knees/shins to track one inch further forward than they already do to accomplish that. Currently the limiting factor.

As for the timing, I learned swing from Steve Maxwell (timing/movement sample below), originally used it to rehab the arthritis at L5S1 when I first got into KBs and has been doing me pretty good ever since. For a long time all I did were alternating hand swings, which I believe also influenced my timing pattern.

My snatch is an amalgam of traditions. I used to bring it straight up and over and decided any exercise that required that much callus care could stand a little smoothing out. Started corkscrewing it after that - inspired (very loosely) by Rudnev's technique with heavier KBs.

 
Ok
The pinched nerve (unless related to pre-existing injury or condition and even then it is a concern) says otherwise to me.

Allowing some shin angle in the hip hinge is fine IMO

Glad you are doing well since your rehab.
 
@ Brett Jones,

Pinched nerve manifested suddenly a couple years ago, degenerative disks between C5C6C7. Doc looking at MRI said "the rest of your disks are Cadillac, these two are jalopies". He felt they probably got whacked many years ago - small pieces were coming off and was only a matter of time before symptoms showed up. Went acute doing dips.

I rehabbed past the bulk of it, at its worse I couldn't feel half of my right hand and had shooting pain from the center of my back all the way down my right arm. Now I have a little discomfort doing straight overhead work or if I have to lean over my workbench for too long. Doc says I'm not a surgical candidate till I show obvious muscle tone imbalance or experience serious chronic nerve pain, which might never happen.

I remember looking around his office feeling very, very lucky.

When I saw him for my back arthritis a decade ago I had previously rec'd a diagnosis of two bulging disks. One look at the MRI "these disks aren't bulging, you have arthritis on the fascia, probably from a trauma at some point. You don't need surgery and there is no surgical option anyway." Made some postural changes and did a ton of core work (high volume alternating swings the centerpiece) - my back only acts up now if I sleep on it funny.


Yes some angle on the hinge is OK, I have some wiggle room there I'm not fully using.

That said, one quickly reaches a point where bending the knee more only lowers the hips and doesn't increase the hinge angle - you're halfway to a squat. I'd rather be securely on the hinge side of that dynamic.
 
Good to know the history and that you are managing your situation well

Obviously anything that creates symptoms needs to be looked at so fixing the lock out issue and reducing the stress there is important and as I stated the wide arc and not having the hips helping as much as they could are part of the factors IMO

The athletic hinge vs. the high hip RDL - you have a lot of wiggle room
The Perfect Kettlebell Swing: Is There Such a Thing?
 
Alright, old dog new trick. I worked a little knee forward (and believe I still have wiggle room according to the standards) into my cleans and noticed two things straight off.

One - was able to clean the same weight with less effort on the double front squat = good news for that lift!

Two - from a straight shin DL posture, could feel that bending the knees transferred load from posterior chain to knee extensors.
This leads immediately to more explosive snap.

Worked it into some sets of snatches at the end of my workout and could feel more snap/acceleration (actually felt like I could go a good deal more rapidly than the video shows) but also feels like less activation of glutes and erectors. There was no real difference in how the shoulder feels at lockout - makes sense as my shoulder feels fine right up until lockout anyway.

Will continue to work these into my snatches and getting my shoulder lower at the bottom, but will be a few before I apply this to swings. Will probably wind up using it with the heavier swings, and when working for volume continue to use straight shin DL method.

 
Yes, very nice snatches there! Form looks great.
 
@Anna C,
Thanks for the look! It definitely looks a lot more Strong Firstian than my usual. I practically tossed the KB over my head after a couple of reps as well, so no doubt more power is being produced.

Having been taught that a bit knee forward is inevitable but should be avoided, this is going to take some dialing in though. I am a bit concerned the added zip appears to be simply due to shifting some load to the knee extensors from my posterior chain by adding another lever.

I don't see it replacing the straight shin technique for all my ballistic hinging but definitely heavy double cleans and snatches to start.

Will have to play around with this for a bit.
 
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