Kettlebell Snatch and bicep fatigue

[Steve W.]

When I worked with an SFG many of the fixes he gave me were straight out of what I've seen in more GS style videos like KBOMG (I forget the video creator's name but the kb guy with the quads.).

That's Joe Daniels. He's the one narrating the Ksenia Dedyukhina video posted above.

 

[Gypsyplumber]

Thanks for all the responses. I feel the snatch is one movement that although it might look decent at first glance, can have many little nuances to tighten up.

Another question, what do most of you all do with your off hand on snatches? At times I’ll use it as a “counter weight” and punch it down as I punch up…and at times it’s just this little T. rex looking thing just kinda there lol.

 

[Steve Freides]

That illustrates what you're saying very well Steve, two quite different styles,

Thank you, @TomP30.

-S-

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Another question, what do most of you all do with your off hand on snatches? At times I’ll use it as a “counter weight” and punch it down as I punch up…and at times it’s just this little T. rex looking thing just kinda there lol.

From 2009... Not sure why the video quality is so godawful, but yeah, I feel the other arm should be used just like you would when jumping:

 

[North]

Thanks for all the responses. I feel the snatch is one movement that although it might look decent at first glance, can have many little nuances to tighten up.

Another question, what do most of you all do with your off hand on snatches? At times I’ll use it as a “counter weight” and punch it down as I punch up…and at times it’s just this little T. rex looking thing just kinda there lol.

@Pavel Macek answers your question in this article…

Lion’s Roar Kettlebell Snatch | StrongFirst

Perfect your kettlebell snatch technique with the Lion’s Roar.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[conor78]

You have a very good set up and seem to be very intentional with your practice. Would agree with the advice on the arm torso connection which may be aggravating the bicep. The bell seems to be dropping in front of the groin area in nearly a dead snatch type of trajectory. By forcing a connection with the torso you’ll benefit from the power of the hip drive. I agree the half snatch can be a good tool to help pattern the snatch. The SF newsletter had a great article about basically practising with your eyes closed..I have done this with the snatch with a focus on the drop and its very useful for getting a feel for where movement in terms of grip and power generation.
Check out Tim Almonds insta: it is a treasure trove for anyone wanting to learn about the hardstyle snatch.

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Also Bron has one of the best snatch techniques out there and is a beast.


Good luck with your training.

 

[Catherine Buck Le]

I haven’t snatched much over the last year as I’ve been running the Giant series a lot. I just started KSK with a 24 and noticed my biceps getting pretty fatigued at the end of my session. I’m wondering if it’s due to not snatching much as of late, is the bell im snatching too heavy, is it my form, or is it just part of doing snatches? This set was my last set of the day so I was already a bit fatigued but please if you see any areas in my form that need improvement I’d appreciate the feedback.

August 8, 2022

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Hi Nick / @Gypsyplumber,

Your snatches look strong! Your hip hinge, speed, and lockout are all great. Awesome work!

I only have two tips for you. The first tip will help with bicep fatigue.

1) Try using the deep grip when snatching. The deep grip is explained and demoed in this video at 1:04.
The deep grip will help you because the handle of the bell will stay deeper in the palm of your hand throughout the snatch. This gives you more tactile contact with the bell, more control over the bell, and it also automatically "tames the arc" a bit, due to the fact that the bell handle is deeper in your palm, and not too close to your calluses or in your fingertips. I think the deep grip will help reduce bicep fatigue because the bell will "pull" you less during the drop. The deep grip takes a little getting used to, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back.




2) While your power breath is strong, it's happening too late. For the power breath to "work", you need to do your "Tss!" at the same time as when the hips drive forward. In your video, you're breathing at the top of the snatch (when the bell arrives in the lockout). Work on doing your power breath earlier, during the hip drive.
This breathing tip won't necessarily help your biceps, but it will help you add power and sharpen up your snatches, swings, and cleans.
This video shows you what breathing late looks like at 5:06 and it gives you a drill to work on breath timing:




Also, @Steve W. 's tips on the drop are spot on.

Keep up the strong work!
Cat

 

[Gypsyplumber]

Thank you

Hi Nick / @Gypsyplumber,

Your snatches look strong! Your hip hinge, speed, and lockout are all great. Awesome work!

I only have two tips for you. The first tip will help with bicep fatigue.

1) Try using the deep grip when snatching. The deep grip is explained and demoed in this video at 1:04.
The deep grip will help you because the handle of the bell will stay deeper in the palm of your hand throughout the snatch. This gives you more tactile contact with the bell, more control over the bell, and it also automatically "tames the arc" a bit, due to the fact that the bell handle is deeper in your palm, and not too close to your calluses or in your fingertips. I think the deep grip will help reduce bicep fatigue because the bell will "pull" you less during the drop. The deep grip takes a little getting used to, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back.




2) While your power breath is strong, it's happening too late. For the power breath to "work", you need to do your "Tss!" at the same time as when the hips drive forward. In your video, you're breathing at the top of the snatch (when the bell arrives in the lockout). Work on doing your power breath earlier, during the hip drive.
This breathing tip won't necessarily help your biceps, but it will help you add power and sharpen up your snatches, swings, and cleans.
This video shows you what breathing late looks like at 5:06 and it gives you a drill to work on breath timing:




Also, @Steve W. 's tips on the drop are spot on.

Keep up the strong work!
Cat

Thanks for the great tips. I look forward to implementing these in my practice Wednesday. It makes sense that my grip could be the culprit.

 

[Francisco]

Thank you

Thanks for the great tips. I look forward to implementing these in my practice Wednesday. It makes sense that my grip could be the culprit.

Agree with other’s members comments.
Just two additional things that may help you:
1) Try snatching a lighter bell, this will help you dial in technique: keep the bell closer to the body, push it on the way down, till your arm is straight and your hips catch the ‘bell. Also it will help feeling the kb float of a truly powerful snatch…
2) hips, hips, hips. When we start snatching, we think about arm movement. Later on we realise it is about a powerful hip hinge. For this do heavy 2HSW. Feel the powerful hip snap. Think about tha snatch as the hips expressing powerful upward movement and the arm doing the steering. The heavy 2HSW may be the best accessory exercise for a great snatch.
Hope this helps, YMMV.

 

[Steve W.]

1) Try using the deep grip when snatching. The deep grip is explained and demoed in this video at 1:04.
The deep grip will help you because the handle of the bell will stay deeper in the palm of your hand throughout the snatch. This gives you more tactile contact with the bell, more control over the bell, and it also automatically "tames the arc" a bit, due to the fact that the bell handle is deeper in your palm, and not too close to your calluses or in your fingertips. I think the deep grip will help reduce bicep fatigue because the bell will "pull" you less during the drop. The deep grip takes a little getting used to, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never go back.

In my observation and experience grip confidence and security has a huge effect on overall form. If you're not secure and confident, consciously and subconsciously, it can counterproductively distort your form in all kinds of ways in a conscious or subconscious effort to reduce stress on the grip. It also inhibits you from expressing full power into the bell. If your nervous system isn't sure you can hold onto it, it prevents you from expressing your full strength.

But as far as the deep grip, I'm generally not a proponent except for very limited applications.

I've posted about this before (longer story below), but tl;dr:
After extensive experimentation with the deep grip, I've mostly abandoned it. It increases low rep grip strength, but at the cost of forearm pump, fatigue and reduced grip endurance that is counterproductive for most of my programming.

I had always used the hook grip (always = 20+ years) because it keeps stress off the callus line at the base of the fingers and is generally easier on the skin. It also allows you to keep the forearm more relaxed since it's more of support-type grip than a crush-type grip.

When I saw some heavy hard style snatchers mention using a deep grip, I started experimenting with it, and it did take some trial and error over time to be able to finesse it so I wasn't painfully pinching folds along the callus line. With the deep grip, there's a degree of goose-necking that's necessary to keep the handle from pinching the callus line and to keep the handle pulling more against the palm of the hand. Otherwise, the "deep grip" ends up being more like overgripping a hook grip, with the stress right at the base of the fingers. Some goose-necking lets you get deeper than that, into the palm

I did find it more secure for heavy bells that are at or above my limit for hook gripping.

However, I also find that the deep grip leads to much more and faster forearm pump. This isn't necessarily a problem with protocols like A+A, where I'm doing 5 or fewer reps per set, resting generously, and alternating arms each set. The sets are short enough so that the forearm pump doesn't build up too much, and there's time for it to dissipate between sets on the same arm.

When I first got the hang of the deep grip, I thought it was great and started to use it for everything. But I quickly discovered that while it helped with grip security, it was counterproductive for grip endurance. The hook grip allows me to keep the forearm much more relaxed and I find it much less fatiguing. As long as my hook grip is strong enough to hold onto the bell, I can stay more relaxed through a longer set and recover faster between sets. I'm sure GS athletes discovered this long ago and that's why GS technique has evolved in the direction it has.

So now I've reverted to the hook grip unless the bell is so heavy that I really need the extra security of the deep grip. And as I get comfortable with a given bell, the more I can transition to a hook grip with it. For reference, I can comfortably hook grip 32kg, and that's the heaviest bell I currently use as a working bell in any normal programming.

For continuous snatching, or programming with more than 5 reps/set, shorter rests between sets, or consecutive sets on the same hand, I use the hook grip. When I started using 32kg for Q&D, starting with a 5/2 rep scheme, I was using the deep grip, but now I've transitioned to the hook grip for that and really all my regular snatch training. If you're dong something like Q&D or King-Sized Killer, or training for a snatch test, I don't think the deep grip is the best way to go. If and when I start using 36kg as a working bell I'll probably begin with a deep grip, but I'm now looking at it as a transitional strategy.

 

[Anna C]

The hook grip allows me to keep the forearm much more relaxed and I find it much less fatiguing. As long as my hook grip is strong enough to hold onto the bell, I can stay more relaxed through a longer set and recover faster between sets. I'm sure GS athletes discovered this long ago and that's why GS technique has evolved in the direction it has.

Insightful post; especially this.

I'm now looking at it as a transitional strategy.

That's my perspective on it also. Use when needed, so as not to let grip hold you back from what you can do otherwise, but not as a standard practice.

 

[Gypsyplumber]

From what I see, the most likely culprit is the drop. It looks like you're trying to brake the fall of the bell with a bent arm, which will certainly fatigue the biceps. You want to get your elbow in and your upper arm connected to your torso, let your arm straighten with minimal tension as the bell drops, and then absorb the force of the drop through your straight arm, into your torso, and then into your hips. There's a subtle timing to it because if your arm is loose and still partially bent when the bell hits the bottom, it's going to pull on your arm very abruptly. So you need to kind of ride the bell down with your hand and take the slack out of your arm, but without tensing it and pulling on the bell as it falls.

I notice that when you initiate the drop, your elbow goes out to the side a lot instead of coming in to the body. This doesn't give you a good connection to the torso to transfer the force to the hips.


This might be revealing, but the same issue can occur in the clean. Psychologically, because of the bigger drop on the snatch, I think people have more of a tendency to be overly tense and try to brake the bell on the way down. IIRC, you do double C&P with bigger bells than you are snatching here. The technique on the drop of your double cleans should have a lot of carryover. Think about the snatch drop going "through the rack." Not an actual catch in the rack like a half snatch, but getting the elbow in sort of like you would drop into the rack and then finishing the drop as if you are dropping a clean.

On the upswing, it does look like you are pulling with your arm, but I wouldn't expect this to cause as much biceps fatigue as braking the bell on the drop. I think "Arm down!" as I extend my hips, and then let the bell go as I finish my hip extension. You want to get the most power transfer possible from your hips, and when you start pulling with your arm before your hips are fully extended, you lose some of that hip power. It's a natural tendency to pull up because the whole intention is to get the bell UP. But if you are more patient in keeping the arm down, you get more power from your hips and the bell will fly. You want to launch it to lockout with hip power, not pull it up with arm power. This also naturally keeps the bell path in closer on the way up.

Yes I can double clean and press 32s, I think I need to focus on the catch and I noticed when I slowed the video down that I’m actually starting to go back up with my arms as the bell reaches its bottom point instead of waiting until I snap the bell with my hips. I don’t that when I clean, I think I need to imagine it the same as when I clean.

 

[Steve W.]

I think I need to imagine it the same as when I clean.

I think this will probably be a good strategy. The force of double 32s from the rack is a lot more than a single 24 from overhead. I think even the grip demand on each hand is more in cleaning 32s.

IMO, the snatch has a lot more in common with the clean than with the swing. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think of snatching "through the rack," and I think of a snatch as a clean that ends up overhead.

So I expect adapting your cleaning strength and technique to the snatch will be a good way to approach it.

 

[Gypsyplumber]

So I found it a bit difficult at first to implement multiple changes at once on the snatch. But after a few sets I feel everything started clicking a bit more. I did not want to go lighter because with the 20kg I’m able to hide my inefficiencies just becuase it’s easy for me to handle.

Deep grip really seemed to help once I chalked up, also making sure I breathe at the hip snap made a difference as well. Most of my sets I tried focusing on deeper hinges as well. I suspect the main culprit was the catch at the bottom because I still felt it a bit on a few reps but bringing in the elbow did help. I did start this session with soreness so it’s hard to tell for sure, but I didn’t notice the same fatigue during the workout like last time. I think I’m on my way to tightening up this movement i thought I’m already had dialed lol

 

[Anna C]

i thought I’m already had dialed lol

It's a never-ending quest! I noticed this with kettlebells and I'm noticing it even more with barbell weightlifting.

Everything is changing, constantly. Either you're changing things deliberately to implement fixes or differences in technique, or your body is changing as it gets stronger (or in some cases, weaker if there is a problem developing), or you are changing the load you're using, or your programming is demanding different capabilities (higher intensity/lower volume, or the opposite).... All of these can affect the movement and require constant attention to keep it "dialed"!

 

[Gypsyplumber]

August 10, 2022

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[JamesPTA]

August 10, 2022

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Strong work!

One thing on noticed from today's video is the drop from the OH lockout. If you notice, your left elbow flares out on the left side, however you bring your right elbow down into and past the racked position, which in my opinion is the correct way and makes to lower catch more enjoyable.

Keep up the excellent progress!

 

[Kev]

What set or minute where you on when you filmed that? For the simple reason that after enough sets my snatch looks like that too. If it was towards the end then I have to say mine looks like that after 18 years of training kettlebells. That fast sloppy punch through because the hands are puddles of wrinkly skin and sweat and my back swing looks like a squat because of aforementioned hand health. Sorry if you already said what set or minute you were on but I can assure you that the set of 15 on whatever week that horror occurs on KSK was turning my snatch form to utter dog turd.

 

[Adachi]

It's a never-ending quest

I'm still a bit young in training, but I've recently spent the better portion of a year snatching.

I'm periodically surprised by differences between my form on camera, and the proprioception of my back - not matching. i think my back is set, then I get a little aggravation, then I film it, and I can see my back isn't set. so I run sets of swing snatch to get the bottom right, with the hips and lower back matching between the different intent of bell forward, versus bell overhead.

I'm periodically surprised by how much my shoulder is involved and traps are involved and I get some irritation in my left shoulder and I film it and see on the video that what I thought was a straight standing-up motion, was actually canted so that my loaded shoulder is leaning up and is close to the ear.

I'm periodically surprised by my grip and bicep being challenged and when I filmed it last, my elbow was coming down way ahead and bullwhipping the rest of the arm at the bottom, and I see the bell flick instead of rotating at the end of the rep, into the backswing, on video.

there's always room for improvement. propping up my phone somewhere to film reps periodically has always been a really big help.

 

[Adachi]

August 10, 2022

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it does appear to me as though the transition to the bottom is much smoother.
and it seems as though getting to the top of the follow-up rep is easier.
I would guess it's from better loading in the hips.

all-in-all stronger looking reps. great progress between the two videos, here.