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Kettlebell Snatches and torso rotation

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Chrisdavisjr

Chrisdavisjr

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While performing sets of light (16kg) kettlebell snatches for time (60s intervals with 75s rests), I noticed I have a tendency to allow my torso to rotate so that the shoulder on the kettlebell side is closer to the ground at the bottom of the snatch. This allows me to use the rotational force generated on the way up to pull the kettlebell rather than relying purely on driving the elbow backwards, as in the high pull or 'strict' hardstyle snatch.

I suppose my question is twofold:
  1. Does anyone else do this or something similar to yield a more 'efficient'/less tiring snatch for higher reps?
  2. Would this get me in trouble at a SF snatch test?
 
@Chrisdavisjr - It’s hard to tell without a video but it sounds like your snatches are a mix of GS and HS techniques.

Ignoring the lifting style and corkscrew drop, are you doing something like this?

 
SuperGirevik said:
@Chrisdavisjr - It’s hard to tell without a video but it sounds like your snatches are a mix of GS and HS techniques.

Ignoring the lifting style and corkscrew drop, are you doing something like this?

Click to expand...


Basically, yes. I keep my heels planted and don't corkscrew the bell, but the torso rotation is pretty much exactly what he's doing. I suppose it's two-thirds hardstyle.

It did make the reps a little easier to get through but the workout has still left me fairly trashed.
 
Little bit of shoulder roll is unavoidable. From an SF perspective I'd imagine it is to be minimized.

The only way I've found to deaden the roll is to counterbalance it with the opposing hand - have applied this to swings but not snatches - it makes them quite a bit tougher but really "pins" the working shoulder relative to the torso.

 
Chris, given your strength level and the fact you're snatching a 16k, I'm asking why you would need to change the hardstyle technique, unless that's what you're aiming for.
After doing many 1000's of snatches with the 16k with VWC I was forced to purify my technique in the hard style. The main driver of every rep comes from hip and leg drive, the work part is done before the bell clears my waist level. To manage fatigue and for safety I pay close attention to keeping everything as square as possible. In some VWC sessions lasting 40 mins you're lifting well over 11 tons of weight, twisting my torso under these conditions would lead to some serious lower back stress for me. Given the quick pace of VWC my technique has to be as efficient and squared up as possible.
For heavier snatches I tend to launch the hips harder and pin the arm hard to the torso keeping power bleed at a minimum. There is a well timed twisting effect while 'pulling the lawnmower starter cord' coupled with precise timing of bell momentum which launches the bell vertically, with the 16k I have to temper this, on a hard snatch with 16k if I let it go out of my hand at the top it would continue to fly up quite a bit.
 
This is one of the things that happens unintentionally from time to time during my snatch. It feels easier, which is why I think it happens when I lose focus or get tired. I definitely feel my thoracolumbar junction if this happens too much with either snatches or swings.
 
Chrisdavisjr said:
While performing sets of light (16kg) kettlebell snatches for time (60s intervals with 75s rests), I noticed I have a tendency to allow my torso to rotate so that the shoulder on the kettlebell side is closer to the ground at the bottom of the snatch. This allows me to use the rotational force generated on the way up to pull the kettlebell rather than relying purely on driving the elbow backwards, as in the high pull or 'strict' hardstyle snatch.

I suppose my question is twofold:
  1. Does anyone else do this or something similar to yield a more 'efficient'/less tiring snatch for higher reps?
  2. Would this get me in trouble at a SF snatch test?
Click to expand...

I think I would advise against it. I'm not any sort of expert on GS technique, but I would say an importance differece between GS and hardstyle is that GS is using the pendulum effect -- the body goes with the bell. In Hardstyle, the body works against the bell. And when you are exerting force - especially quick, ballistic force - against a moving object, you want to be aligned, and tight. Further, you want your hinge to like a loaded spring, storing elastic energy for the reversal of the bell. That's why in a one arm swing you're reaching your chest forward as the bell reaches back in the backswing. Everything's loaded for the reversal upwards in the explosive upswing. Same thing with the snatch. I would say use the anti-rotation for safety of the spine, and use the stretching/loading for power, both to good effect. IMO you would be negating both by rotating the torso in the backswing.
 
@Bret S., @Brett Jones and @Anna C Thanks for your responses.

On reflection, it looks as though I was, for want of a better word, 'cheating' my way through the reps to try and make up for a fatigue-induced power deficiency in my hip drive.

It would behove me to work on improving my snatch form with low rep sets before plunging into high-rep, 'self-punitive metcon'™.
 
To be fair, even the video showing the standards, the loaded shoulder is definitely lower than the unburdened one at the bottom of the hike.

Personally I would also warn against too much of that, even the GS folk tend not to exaggerate that too much and don't appear to use the uncoiling effect to drive the bell.
 
One thing worth noting is that a heavy HS snatch or swing may pull the shoulder down a bit. I believe Pavel even mentions in S&S that, once you get to a certain weight, it's almost impossible to keep the should packed perfectly at the bottom of the swing. This may give the appearance that the torso is rotating, when in fact it's just the shoulder moving a little bit on a stable torso.
 
1. yes
2.yes

Your questions have already been answered but just to say I was blissfully unaware that my free arm had too much back swing and caused me to twist too much snatching. Corrected by sfg eyes.
 
This is a GS technique and I do this all the time, to the point where the KB passes between my legs diagonally. The torque from the rotation adds an additional source of power.

Good explanation of torque here - starts at around the 4 minute mark:

 
Besides conforming to a style, are there any safety issues with torso rotation? I'm curious because I usually perform GS snatches in my training.
 
North Coast Miller said:
To be fair, even the video showing the standards, the loaded shoulder is definitely lower than the unburdened one at the bottom of the hike.

Personally I would also warn against too much of that, even the GS folk tend not to exaggerate that too much and don't appear to use the uncoiling effect to drive the bell.
Click to expand...

Lower is not the same as rotated
 
Brett Jones said:
Lower is not the same as rotated
Click to expand...


This is true, but just like maintaining a perfect neutral lumbar spine when Squat or DL, is not possible in practice but something to shoot for.

Image below, the hips aren't dead across (so some rotation already) and the upper torso is slightly counter-rotated. Not a lot of either, but between the two there is definitely some.

A little bit is probably not only unavoidable but a good thing until you start using too much of that action to drive the load.

IBQDyoL.jpg
 
SuperGirevik said:
Besides conforming to a style, are there any safety issues with torso rotation? I'm curious because I usually perform GS snatches in my training.
Click to expand...

I have a bad back and I have had no issues with it. My shoulders are fortunately very healthy and no problems there either.

Watch how Denis Kanygin does it in the video I posted. It's not a huge rotation. It also involves a weight shift to the leg opposite from the working arm. This is surprisingly a very natural movement - at least it was for me and I have like zero athletic talent, so if I can do it anyone can. The weight shift and the lifting the heel of the foot that is on the same side as the working arm will just happen. Don't think about it. What I've noticed is that this rotation gets better as I get deeper into a set. My first few reps of snatch may start out somewhat HS-ish, but as fatigue accumulates, I go into the rotation as it provides for more power generation with little effort.
 
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