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Barbell So how much do you guys know about the Bulgarian Method?????

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@ILikeToSquat : I like to ask you one question. You are currently lifting daily at a intermediate level. Where do you go once the progress stops? Twice a day squat sessions? And then? How do you increase the stimulus?
 
Ah, the infamous Bulgarian Method developed by "Uncle" Abadjiev.

First, I agree with @Kettlebelephant that Pat Mendes is not the best example of success using this method because he did use PEDs and the Broz method is the Broz method, as @Geoff Chafe mentioned.

Second, the "true" Bulgarian Method is somewhat of a mystery. It's not just training every day but doing multiple sessions a day. And by multiple I mean not just two but up to four training sessions per day. There is a rumor/anecdote that Abadjiev developed this method not for its training effect but to control his lifters. Unlike other athletes, weightlifters can be a little "looser" with their non-training time and still be successful. They can eat crap, especially the super heavies. They can smoke. In fact, there were stories that during the Olympics in the '80s and '90s the Turkish, Greek, and several East Bloc lifters would hang together outside between the snatch and the C&J to smoke. They literally smoked at the event! Don't see too many marathon runners stop to take a smoke. I'm sure these guys also liked to have a drink now and then. Of course, eating crap, drinking, and smoking will eventually affect the performance of a weightlifter, so it is understandable why a coach from a country where eating crap, drinking, and smoking are cultural norms would want to control his lifters' entire day.

Third, there was another rumor that Abadjiev was told to either produce champions or lose his job as national coach. The method thus became "natural selection." Training multiple times each day will take its toll even on a steroid user. Only the strong, but physically and mentally, could survive. Those that did were the best of the best, and the rest had to find a day job while dealing with injuries. Abadjiev kept his job in a communist system off the backs (and knees and shoulders) of his lifters, just like a true robber baron capitalist. Oh the irony.

Fourth, the method was applied to the Olympic lifts. Olympic lifts can be dropped so they have no eccentric component. It's the eccentric that causes the most muscle damage. The only lifts with an eccentric that the Bulgarians did were back squats and front squats. The Bulgarians did the classic lifts, the power versions, and front and back squats. That's it. While still tough, this is not nearly as bad as trying to do all three powerlifts multiple times each day.

Having said that, I agree with @Steve Freides that frequency is good. I also believe that "experimenting" with different training systems is good provided it is done intelligently. You also seem very curious about the Bulgarian method. This curiosity will not be satisfied until you try it. So here are my thoughts:

The book by Matt Perryman is good.

Frequent lifting does, in a way, actually prevent injuries. How can this be given all of the injured Bulgarians? Because you will not be able to train multiple sessions per day if you have a regular job. There is a dose limit here. Even Broz limited sessions to no more than 3/day (I think). Glenn Pendlay, who also had his own variation of the Bulgarian method, used no more than 2/day and gave his lifters the weekends off.

Everyone makes a big deal that the Bulgarian method has you max out each day. But this is a very mellow max. Even Abadjiev didn't require his lifters to work up to an all out max during the sessions (again, rumor has it). If you're popping caffeine pills, sniffing ammonia, and having your buddy slap you in the face before your daily max, you're doing it wrong. You'll go days where you'll hit the same weight for your daily max. This is going to take discipline on two almost contradictory levels. You'll need discipline to push yourself to go lift every day, especially after five straight days of the same daily max. While you'll need to push yourself, you'll also need the discipline to back off. So what if you've hit the same max for the past week?

When I was Olympic lifting and in desperate need to improve my snatch, I went two weeks where I did nothing but snatches and front squats each day with weekends off. After a few days warm ups were quick since it seemed as if my muscles were in a constant state of being "prepared" to train. By contrast, if I train squat once a week my legs seem really stiff and warm ups take some time. This is probably the reason behind the injury prevention thing.

I was tired and hungry during this experiment, but nothing bad happened. My snatch and front squat both improved nicely.

So, I encourage you to try this method. Just don't be a moron.

Nice summary, and it all makes sense.

Except that Turks and Greeks were hanging together :)
 
Dusted off the Perryman book (figuratively since I have a digital copy) and read parts of it. Forgot how good it is.

@ILikeToSquat : I like to ask you one question. You are currently lifting daily at a intermediate level. Where do you go once the progress stops? Twice a day squat sessions? And then? How do you increase the stimulus?

When lifting every day, the body is never fully recovered, so each session provides additional stimulus. The stimulus may be small, but that's okay because you'll do the same workout tomorrow. Over time, these small changes add up and will produce a big change. Also, there are going to be bad workouts, good workouts, and great workouts. You won't know what type of workout you'll get until you do it. Formal periodization is not needed because the whole thing is self-periodized.

Perryman provides some guidance on this in the book.
 
@MikeTheBear : I think we have a missunderstanding. It is known that a beginner needs only a small stimulus to improve. Hence, basically everything can make a beginner stronger. The adaptation is also fast which is why the weight on the bar can be increased very frequently. An intermediate lifter needs already a higher stimulus and the adaptation is slower. An advanced athlete might need a year to put on a few kilos on his total. The required stimulus is a lot higher. Often the athlete might even overtrain on purpose in order to improve in the adaptation phase.
Now I am sure that you know all that. My point was now that @ILikeToSquat is still quite at the beginning of his journey. Why already use advanced methods such as the Bulgarian approach?
There will be an improvement. Let's say for the sake of argument he increases his squat from 300 to 400 pounds, but eventually there will be a plateau. What will he do then? How will he increase the stimulus?
In summary I am asking why not to use an easier method and leave the advanced stuff for later.
It's like Dan John says about plyometrics. It works for six weeks and it works only once. Why use it as a beginner/intermediate?

On a side note when listening to Max Aita who trained with Abadjiev himself it's not so much of a method, but the most extreme form of specialization possible for the sport of Olympic lifting where you go all out every session. The last part is always forgotten apparently. It's like when people say they train like a MMA fighter. No you don't unless someone is punching you in phase. Or I train like a Navy Seal. No you only do that in the actual Navy. They even guide you through the whole process.
 
It's like Dan John says about plyometrics. It works for six weeks and it works only once. Why use it as a beginner/intermediate?
Umh, I think that's out of context. Doing the exact same routine, week in week out, will only work for ~6 weeks. That's what Dan meant right?

However, if you constantly change things ("same but different") you can make progress for many months on what are virtually similar routines.

I'm very skeptical to the idea that doing high frequency early on will "max out your adaptations" and then the only way to improve after that is to do even more frequency. I'm sure if you then proceeded to a low frequency, high intensity phase, you could still make progress while the body desensitizes to the volume. And then you can run another high frequency cycle. Or just change some of the exercises (similar intensity, less volume) and that's usually a good stimulus to continue progressing.

Also, I've never heard Dan John say that plyometrics work only once and for 6 weeks but if he honestly said that, I would politely disagree with that. I know many, many people who have trained plyometrics for many years (gymnasts, jumpers, etc), or done it at various points of their yearly prep, always to fine results. That sounds like a very drastic conclusion from someone like Dan. Care to provide a quote?
 
Also, I've never heard Dan John say that plyometrics work only once and for 6 weeks but if he honestly said that, I would politely disagree with that. I know many, many people who have trained plyometrics for many years (gymnasts, jumpers, etc), or done it at various points of their yearly prep, always to fine results. That sounds like a very drastic conclusion from someone like Dan. Care to provide a quote?

@305pelusa, if you Google

Dan John on plyometrics

The first hit that comes up for me is where this comes from:

Trust me. It's been done before and better

-S-
 
@305pelusa, if you Google

Dan John on plyometrics

The first hit that comes up for me is where this comes from:

Trust me. It's been done before and better

-S-
"Oh, and one little thing that I have observed (and I am fully prepared to be wrong): you get to really use these ONCE in your career. What I mean is this: when you start using them, whatever increases you get are all you will ever get from shock training or plyos. Like sport specificity and isometrics, it helps. But, it only helps once. Of course, it works: For elite athletes who squat double bodyweight."

Yeah I had seen that quote but I thought that was referring specifically to depth jumps and shock training. Not all of plyometrics since that was the context (and when he says "you get to use these [depth jumps] once". But yeah, I guess that could be taken as saying all plyometrics (not just depth jumps) since he mentions the "plyos" part that I had missed.

I'd be interested to see if he still believes, especially since he himself seems fairly uncertain about it in that quote.

I was just curious if another quote about Plyometrics only working for 6 weeks specifically was being referenced, hence why I asked.
 
Umh, I think that's out of context. Doing the exact same routine, week in week out, will only work for ~6 weeks. That's what Dan meant right?

However, if you constantly change things ("same but different") you can make progress for many months on what are virtually similar routines.

I'm very skeptical to the idea that doing high frequency early on will "max out your adaptations" and then the only way to improve after that is to do even more frequency. I'm sure if you then proceeded to a low frequency, high intensity phase, you could still make progress while the body desensitizes to the volume. And then you can run another high frequency cycle. Or just change some of the exercises (similar intensity, less volume) and that's usually a good stimulus to continue progressing.

Also, I've never heard Dan John say that plyometrics work only once and for 6 weeks but if he honestly said that, I would politely disagree with that. I know many, many people who have trained plyometrics for many years (gymnasts, jumpers, etc), or done it at various points of their yearly prep, always to fine results. That sounds like a very drastic conclusion from someone like Dan. Care to provide a quote?

Read @Steve Freides's posted link for context about Dan John's remark. The article is about claiming old knowledge as "new discoveries" and use these as the solution-for-everything. I am pretty sure that in an article about plyometrics Dan John would not say something post such a drastic conclusion, that is not his style.

Regarding the OP routine, it is at the extremes of both intensity and frequency, and is a high-end routine with huge systemic load, just like plyometrics. Most people here just say that at the OP level that less demanding routines can produce the same results more efficiently. Keep high end routines to when you have to use them, just like there's is no reason to do depth jumps when you cannot do a proper air squat...
 
I think it's important to consider the methods that @ILikeToSquat wants to use have positive effects beyond increasing PRs on lifts. Other benefits of these methods include:
  1. Confidence under weight
  2. Learning that the body will lie to you. Sometimes you feel great and lift terrible, others you feel terrible and lift great
  3. Connective tissue strength
  4. Enjoyment to stay in the gym (nobody can counter this as a reason for a program) It's a trump card.
 
Enjoyment to stay in the gym (nobody can counter this as a reason for a program) It's a trump card.

I've said it before but it needs repeating. There is such a thing as a "best" routine or an "ideal" routine. The best routine is one that you will do consistently. Ten years from now, whether you're stronger and still lifting will be based on whether you showed up to the gym. The routines you did or didn't do will not matter. At all.
 
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Hello,

I’m assistant coach at Zlatan Vanev Weightlifting Academy in Bulgaria, and was the last person to learn directly from mr Abadjiev before he passed away.

There are a lot of things to be said about the comments so far in this post but I will address the OP with my 2 cents.

if I only do BS 5x/week and FS 2x/week, are they sufficiently dissimilar that doing so will that put me in danger of injury for the aforementioned reasons????

This is no problem. If you use gear like a powerlifter (by that I mean belt and thick sleeves, not a suit) you might even want to take those off for some sessions for a third variation.

2) How much volume do I really need to sustain progress?

This is highly individual. With mr Abadjiev the volume in the session would be less but the number of sessions are so high that the WEEKLY VOLUME is not as low as some might think. At the Academy where our athletes just train twice per day the volume in the session will be greater. There are no set rules, it changes every day. Don’t do the same thing every day or adaptation will stop.

Good luck.
 
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I remember hearing the Bulgarians hardly ever squatted. Even though people claim it and apply it to the Squat. They did unilateral work like the Step Up and obviously developed, Bulgarian Split Squat. They did single leg work to increase Leg strength for recovery strength and Jerk strength without overloading their already overstressed erectors. They only Squatted if they were too injured to train the competition lifts

This is complete nonsense. There’s no single leg stuff in the Bulgarian system and there are squats every day, often mutiple times per day.
 
@305pelusa
i know that many people in the calisthenics community use plyometric push ups in all possible variations and continue to make progress.
and i guess you could confirm that.

so, yeah, maybe dan john was very specific about death jumps, but not plyos per se...
 
I've never been much of an Oly lifter but I've been told that the front squat and overhead squat become the limiters to the lifts and could be classified as competition lifts from that perspective.
 
Some sensible things stated so far.

Only comment I am making is you are low bar squatting - doesn't fully make sense with the program you are opting for. Squatting every day type programs usually have natural in.built limiters to try and reduce the max used - fatigue, no arousal etc etc. As such why opt for a low bar squat which often improved biomechanical efficiency to lift more weight.

Personally feel a deep high bar squat would be better suited to reduce weight used whilst still maxing. Looking at your numbers your max would drop and as such the worrying of finer set details of a program is irrelevant as your numbers could be achieved by a newbie within a year of consistent effort and focus on a variety of programs such as 5x5 etc (as your high bar max would potentially be a shade under 300lbs)
 
@Stefan The Squat is not a competition Lift, and they put all there effort into the competition Lift.

No, this is not correct. Who told you this? Even in his final variation that mr Abadjiev presented to me the front squat is done daily, multiple times per day.
 
Heard this podcast yesterday and thought it would be a good addition to this thread.

 
@Stefan Thanks for your posts. I would really like to buy you a beer or three and talk to you about your experience as a Bulgarian weightlifting coach for an hour or three.
 
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