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Other/Mixed So... Lets Debate... For Fun

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Nathan

Nathan

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So I have always wondered about this, but never really sought the answer until now.

Say, for example, you perform 20 sets of 5 for 3 days a week (60 total sets, or 300 total reps for the week). Would it be better to instead maybe perform 15 sets of 5 for 4 days a week or maybe 12 sets of 5 for 5 days a week, or even 10 sets of 5 for 6 days a week?

The above is simply an example. I guess the question overall is whether it is better to spread out the volume or compress it (assuming the overall weekly volume is equal).

Furthering this train of thought. If, lets say, each subsequent workout calls for added poundage (even if it's just 5lbs) then spreading out the days may actually provide more benefit as the overall tonnage would be higher.

I am not sure if their is another thread similar to this but I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss for general knowledge.
 
I think it depends on a lot more variables than just volume like intensity, density, personal ability to recover (which itself depends on a lot variables like age, nutrition, work, "health" history etc.) and more.

For myself I found out that 5-6days of training has a better effect than just 2 or 3. The thing is I never tried to take exactly the same volume of my 5 days and put it all into just 2 or 3.

Somewhere in his original article about the Mind over Muscle/5x5x5 routine Pavel says that for strength 1 set of 5 every day for 5 days is better than 5 sets of 5 just once per week.
 
I think a major factor has to do with the adaptation and recovery that occurs. If you train again before your body recovers, you hurt yourself. If you wait too long between training, the body loses that positive adaptation and you simply keep starting from scratch. High frequency, low volume avoids the risk of both. It also depends on the desired adaptation, if you want a higher capacity muscle, more volume with less frequency would be better. If you want nervous system adaptation, less volume with higher frequency would be better.
 
I am gonna simplify it, but let's say in powerlifting, you have classical American school - 1 main set, 1 main lift a day, linear periodization. Works.

Then you have Russian school - training almost every day, lots of sets, changing the weight and rep scheme all the time, lots of waving the load. Works.

And then lots of programs in-between.

So, it depends - for who?
 
A frequency of 5/6 days a week of the same exercise I see as 'skill' training. Naturally you would become very good and efficient in the exercise you perform. But another thing, which might matter most, is the intensity & density of your workout. You might not get away with 10 sets of 5 daily, with 5rm weight and 30 seconds of rest between each set.

What I noticed with S&S (high frequency routine) is that when heavier weight is introduced, an offday becomes essential more often. For example, I can do my getups with 24kg and this is easy, and do-able for 7 days in a row without deloads/offdays, but when I introduce 2 sets with 28kg (the heavier bell) I can repeat this a 2nd day, perhaps 3rd then require a day off.

So practically, it depends on more variables then sets/reps, and of course, your training goal.

You want to get more than good at a lift, go for 5/6 sessions a week, desire muscle, 2/4 sessions will suit you better. Etc etc, personally I like 'heavy' weights so 4/5 times a week, mostly 4 suits me best.
 
If I had a plan to do 60 sets of 5 a week, I'd try to spread the volume over several days. But then again, I wouldn't see it necessary to keep the total load the same. One of the main advantages of spreading the volume is staying fresh and being able to tolerate more intensity.
 
Nathan said:
Say, for example, you perform 20 sets of 5 for 3 days a week (60 total sets, or 300 total reps for the week). Would it be better to instead maybe perform 15 sets of 5 for 4 days a week or maybe 12 sets of 5 for 5 days a week, or even 10 sets of 5 for 6 days a week?
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There are more relevant variables than just how to divide a particular weekly volume. As @Pavel Macek suggests, common models are one weekly high volume and/or heavy weight day, or training frequently at at lower intensity of volume and/or weight.

-S-
 
Properly constructed training produces a stress that is adequate to disrupt homeostasis and force an adaptive response in the desired direction. Additional stress beyond that which will compel an adaptive response does not somehow create a more profound adaptive response. The overage just becomes accumulated fatigue unless the time between bouts is stretched out long enough to dissipate it. The relationship bodybuilders have with "Leg Day" comes to mind: totally destroy a muscle group with so much volume they can't walk for two days, repeat again week after next. The amount of volume described in the OPs example, 300 reps per week, rules out strength training in all but the completely untrained, so something like swings remains, in which case I'm not sure it matters how you chop it up. But the question remains: is 5 sets of 5 on a single day of the week the same effect as that created by 1 set of 5 on M-F? Can you do 5x5 with the same intensity that you can do 5x1? No. Is the 5RM load you're going to use M-F adequate to disrupt homeostasis? Probably, depending on the lift. Can you undergo the Stress/Recovery/Adaptation cycle every 24 hours? No. On the other hand, can you do 5x5 with your 5RM load? No. You'd need something like 85% of 5RM. Would 5 sets with that weight be adequate to disrupt homeostasis? Yes. Would it be way more than adequate? Probably, depending upon the movement. Would it require a week to undergo S/R/A? No, so some detraining would occur. Bonus points if you can point to a scheme that drives continuous improvement by more closely adhering to a sustainable S/R/A cycle without detraining. More bonus points if you can surmise why you intuitively know 10 swings with a Beast =/= 10 Presses with a Beast.
 
Kettlebelephant said:
That article shows everything that's wrong with todays online behavior...

Author: Muscle Media
Mentioning of Pavel in the article: 0x

Pavel is the original author of that article and routine!!!
Click to expand...

Calm down its only bodybuilding.com ..
they also have pics of windmills claiming its a bent press :rolleyes:
 
For the first time in my life I am focussed on one exercise (deadlift) and working out daily. Every day has a different weight/set/rep scheme based on Rule of 10, except one day of 1x15. It adds up to 70 reps weekly at an average 75%RM. Firstly until trying it I wouldn't have imagined being able to deadlift seven days without injury. But by paying strict attention to programming (I know exactly what workout I am doing seven days in advance and never depart) and form thus far I am doing well - bit of lower back stiffness but not getting worse. Secondly my awareness of every aspect of the lift, from toes to head, has improved exponentially. It's so much to easier to remember what happened yesterday rather than days ago (whatever I read on strongfirst tonight goes into practice tomorrow). Thirdly strength and hypertrophy gains seem okay. I'm leaning out (down 12kg woo! hoo!) in ketosis so that impacts but I'm pleased. Overall if you haven't tried PTTP, Daily Dose or true daily I would recommend giving it a go
 
I posted that in a related post by the OP in the 300 Swings challenge thread
300 Swings a day Challenge

Copy & paste form there:

Based on my own experience, and that of Steve Justa, I think I can provide some insight on that... Or at least I'll try...

When you spread your 3 days a week load on the entire week you inhibit recovery. Your body is used to handle a given volume with 4 days of recovery and is asked to handle the same volume with only single day of recovery.

If we will look at two of Justa's singles routines we will see that the daily singles has 63 lifts a week and the every-other-day routine has 105 lifts a week. That's 66% more volume. Both routines are at 70% of 1RM load.

I did both, with good results, and definitely couldn't spread the volume of the every other day routine to the entire week.

Recovery takes resource as well.
 
Okay, so the focus on the specific volume I used as an example is not really the point. I utilized 60 total sets because it was easy to divide across 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 days. I am just generally speaking about overall volume (assuming the load is the same).

@Shahaf Levin - I like your analogy, I was wondering myself about recovery.

I have been toying around with a program of either doing squats at 10 sets of 5 across 4 - 5 days a week, or just doing 3 days a week, setting a timer, and doing sets of 5 until the timer expires (maybe 45 or 60 minutes). Obviously resting as needed, and adding 5 lbs to the load each day (similar to PTTP). I have been avoiding squats simply because they suck so its time to maybe fix that for a short period.
 
Nathan said:
I have been toying around with a program of either doing squats at 10 sets of 5 across 4 - 5 days a week, or just doing 3 days a week, setting a timer, and doing sets of 5 until the timer expires (maybe 45 or 60 minutes). Obviously resting as needed, and adding 5 lbs to the load each day (similar to PTTP). I have been avoiding squats simply because they suck so its time to maybe fix that for a short period.
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@Nathan whats the goal?
You only really need up to 50 relatively heavy reps per week to make significant progress.

SS is 3x5 3x per week = 45 reps - increasing load every day
Texas Method is 3x per week with following rep schemes 5x5/2x5/1x5 = 40 reps - increasing load every week
PttP is 2x5 or 5-3-2 5x per week = 50 reps - various increases, usually daily with stepping back sometimes
Easy Strength is "Rule of 10" 5x per week = 50 reps - varying load every day based on feeling
Greyskull LP is 2x5 & 1x5+ 2x per week = 30-40 reps - increasing load every day

All of those will give a good blend between max strength and hypertrophy.
Of course there are more, but those are time proven and work for people on different levels (e.g. Texas Method is better suited for intermediate lifters).
So you see your 10sets of 5 over the course of the week are very accurate.

I'd shy away from the sets of 5 for 45-60min. Even if you rest for 5min between sets you end up with 8-10 reps. Doing this 3x per week will come out as 100-150 reps, which would be 50-100 unnecessary reps. Something like that can be used as a plateau breaker for 2-3 weeks, but for constant progress it will take up too much of your recovery that could be spend on something else.
Think of recovery as a currency. Why pay a certain amount of recovery when only 1/3 or 1/2 of that would be needed for progress?
 
@Kettlebelephant - My goal is difficult to explain. I wanna re-develop my legs but not to bodybuilding standards, and I do not want to simply keep to a 3x5 rep scheme because I don't feel it's enough volume. In the process, I want to maybe see what sorts of physique improvements I get after a good solid 12 weeks of squatting. I think that slowly adding more weight and keeping a time limit of 60 minutes will self-regulate the volume as the weight increases or as fatigue sets in over a week of training. I may eventually only be able to do 3 sets of 5 as the weight gets heavy enough. I guess I just want the overall athletic, strength, and physique improvements that squats tend to bring by simply doing them. I am looking to make sure the balance of training and rest will be sufficient, and it seems the 3 days a week option may be the ticket (was also considering 4 days a week). I choose sets of 5 probably because I want more myofibrillar hypertrophy over sarcoplasmic, but this is admittedly a bit picky.

When the weather gets better, I am getting back on the Tactical Barbell Law Enforcement Program (maybe doing solely calisthenics... we will see), but for the winter I want to play around with some serious gym training.

As far as strength, I have done a heavy single of 450, and think my overall max may be around 500. I think a squat program like the one I outlined above may just be something fun for the boring winter.
 
+1 to what @Kettlebelephant said; most successful programs have a similar training volume load. If you want more volume than 3x5 and want 3x/week training, I think there is value in looking at the intensity number of lifts (INOL) for good guidance (which most of the above programs align with). Keeping the volume open ended using a timer like you mention I think will encourage too many days that you do more than you should because it will feel ok to do so. For simplicity and self regulation, I like 3 methods:
  1. Simplicity and performance focus:, from Purposeful Primitive by Marty Gallagher, my personal favorite 3x per week squat training is working up to a heavy triple and then 3x5 @ 75% of whatever that triple was. For a little more hypertrophy (and upper body) I like working up to a 5RM and then 3x8 @ 75% of the 5RM. Both are simple and pretty self regulating and the additional volume of the work-up sets would meet your needs.
    • An alternative I have done that I don't do much just because of the tediousness (simple still though) is start at empty bar and work up to a heavy triple with 20# weight jumps (10# for upper body). Keep rest periods short and the volume comes from such small weight increments.
  2. Simplicity Focus: Using a timer, I would suggest density training. Pick a weight and do 30-50% of the max reps you can at the top of every X minutes. An example would be 3 reps at your 8RM weight every 4 minutes for 6 sets. I think this method works well for large jumps in weight if you are looking for super simple. The next week do 4x and at some point find new max reps at a weight (higher or lower) and start over.
 
Nathan said:
As far as strength, I have done a heavy single of 450, and think my overall max may be around 500. I think a squat program like the one I outlined above may just be something fun for the boring winter.
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You probably don't need any advice from me then :)
Those are strong numbers and anyone who has achieved numbers like that probably knows what works for him/her.

Regarding physique improvements though, I think the squats won't have a big impact anymore. Muscle gains slow down significantly as the lifting years progress***.
You seem to be lifting for several years now and you have achieved big numbers. There probably isn't really much lean mass to be gained naturally anymore. This isn't definite and I don't want to discourage you, but gaining more than 2-3lbs of muscle is very unlikely. Any other weight gain will be fat.
Now we all have different ideal physiques and you may not even care about the added fat, but as a soon-to-be LEO getting leaner is probably a better choice than adding even more weight.
Diet and stripping down the fat will yield much better results.
In no way does that mean you shouldn't squat or try to get stronger with it, but be realistic about the physique improvements you will experience by squatting.

***Lyle McDonald sees the following number as realistic for natural lifters:
1. Year - 20-25lbs
2. Year - 10-12lbs
3. Year - 5-6lbs
4. Year - 2-3lbs
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you fit into the 4+ years category, right?
 
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