Barbell Sore lower back from deadlifts

[Timo Keskitalo]

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Who's to say? It can go in multiple ways

 

[Pete L]

So, I just finished up a PTTP cycle of deadlift and decided I am going to give this a try. I finished the last cycle at a 5RM of 280 lbs, so using that number and an online calculator it estimates my 1rm at 315 lbs so that is what I based my calculations on. For anyone who cares, I have created a quick spreadsheet to see how this corresponds to a 4 days forward/3 day back wave on the regular PTTP wave progression. The bottom line, is over a 6.5 week timeframe (necessary to finish the last wave instead of stopping right at 6 weeks), the total weight lifted for this inverse progression is 83,500 lbs and 350 reps, vs PTTP at 77,000 lbs and 320 reps. That is starting at 70% of my 1rm for both progressions (225lbs) and using 10 lb jumps with Steve's plan 3 days a week, and 5 lb jumps with PTTP plan 5 days a week.

Am I correct that if I can recover OK, even though the overall volume and tonnage is fairly similar (less than 10% difference over a 6 week period), by concentrating the work on 3 days instead of 5 it should elicit more hypertrophy than the regular PTTP?

I don't know about hypertrophy.
Two question please @BJJ Shawn ;
Your spreadsheet assumes you maintain 5 reps per set but won't you reduce the reps as you approach the end of the cycle?
How do you know how long the cycle will last?

From PTTP;

"Before you know it, things will get heavy. Do not attempt a rep unless you are 100% certain you are going to make it in good form! Just drop the rep or reps that you have not made and carry on the cycle until you are down to two or three reps."

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I don't know about hypertrophy.
Two question please @BJJ Shawn ;
Your spreadsheet assumes you maintain 5 reps per set but won't you reduce the reps as you approach the end of the cycle?
How do you know how long the cycle will last?

From PTTP;

"Before you know it, things will get heavy. Do not attempt a rep unless you are 100% certain you are going to make it in good form! Just drop the rep or reps that you have not made and carry on the cycle until you are down to two or three reps."

The spreadsheet is purely hypothetical to get an idea of the actual volume over a longer period of time. The timeframe was chosen at random and just gave me an idea of what the two given progressions looked like side by side.

However, in your quote you are missing the last sentence: "Another option is not to peak at all, but terminate a cycle once you have made a little gain, say five pounds per lift, over a previous one." Dropping down to fewer reps and continuing on is not something I have chosen to do. I have been terminating my cycles when I reach a point where I don't feel I can complete a full 5 reps if I add any more. And my last cycle took me to 280 lbs, so if I can even match what I have done I could complete 90% of this hypothetical cycle before I even get back to that point.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

I haven't read all the advice on this thread but Steve's advice to throw it all away and just do less and build gradually (I hope I'm summarizing what he said faithfully) is imho great advice.

I think you said you'd post a video of some of your DLs - that might be helpful to see from the front and side. DLs are not a highly technical lift, but video might reveal some issues.

If you're like me and have really bad levers for DLing (short arms and legs, long torso), then I'm just going to say that high intensity work ('intensity' defined as % of your 1rm) is NOT your friend, and that you will have much better luck building your squat and doing a lot more DL auxiliary work (like stiff-legged DLs/Romanian DLs, GMs, GHR, hyperextensions/back raises, etc) again at lower intensities. That's been my experience at least.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I haven't read all the advice on this thread but Steve's advice to throw it all away and just do less and build gradually (I hope I'm summarizing what he said faithfully) is imho great advice.

I think you said you'd post a video of some of your DLs - that might be helpful to see from the front and side. DLs are not a highly technical lift, but video might reveal some issues.

If you're like me and have really bad levers for DLing (short arms and legs, long torso), then I'm just going to say that high intensity work ('intensity' defined as % of your 1rm) is NOT your friend, and that you will have much better luck building your squat and doing a lot more DL auxiliary work (like stiff-legged DLs/Romanian DLs, GMs, GHR, hyperextensions/back raises, etc) again at lower intensities. That's been my experience at least.

I honestly have no clue what my levers are like. I feel pretty normal, haha.

I did post a form check vid a couple weeks after this, but yeah, I think it was mostly just over doing it as I have been deadlifting with the normal PTTP plan (10 reps a day) 4-5 days a week with no further pains. As it was a new exercise for me I just tried to follow the bear plan as outlined in the book and that may not have been the best thing for me.

 

[Steve A]

Shawn, tell you what strikes me about this whole thread. There are all these ideas for the how, but I don't see why any of them are needed at this point. You aren't that old, that strangely shaped, that broken to need any complexity. I have no idea how many thousands of people have succeeded with the approach I'm about to describe, but over the years I've personally seen a LOT. DL 1x or 2x a week, for 1 or 2 work sets, adding a little weight the next time if all reps are done clean. That should take almost any male up to (at least) 3 plates a side, with few needs for breaks.

As or the Bear, I haven't done it, but there have been numerous posts and reports on it over the years, and the consensus seems to be that is something to try after achieving a 2x BW DL.

 

[solarbear]

I haven't read all the advice on this thread but Steve's advice to throw it all away and just do less and build gradually (I hope I'm summarizing what he said faithfully) is imho great advice.

Yep. This advice reminds me a lot of 531, where you just keep puddling along with whatever your Training Max is no matter what Max you tested for fun or in a comp. And if you stall out, back up a couple and keep going. The max is just there to provide you with adequate work for improvement not as a mountainous challenge.

I have always found this type of training to lead to lots of gains over a 12 month period. Where high intensity for as long as I could maintain it has always led to rapid improvement over a couple months but then injury and less progress over the same time.

 

[minaam]

I have spent the last 8 months or so doing S&S and 10,000 swing challenge while in a calorie deficit and dropped from 208 lbs to 172ish. I’m ready to take a break from being in a deficit and would like to spend a little while developing a bigger base of strength while building some more musculature.

Strength is of course the bigger goal, as my 1rm in deadlift is roughly 300lbs right now and in bench press is only about 200lbs, so I definitely have a lot of room for improvement. I just thought that the Bear program looked like a good way to both add strength AND add some muscle, without picking one or the other.

I was also interested in doing the Faleev 5x5 program as I really like the idea of focusing on only one move per day. Since strength is the ultimate goal, maybe that would be better for me. PTTP, Bear, Faleev, etc…too many choices.

If you’re wanting Strength and hypertrophy, my vote goes to Faleev, especially the version where you start your cycle at a lighter weight but with more volume (5x8). After 4-6 weeks, once that gets difficult, switch to 5x5. When that stalls switch to 3x3. As a beginner you can probably run this for about 6 months before you start stalling. Eat enough to put on ~2lb/month and sleep at least 7 hours/night. Add in some weighted Dips/chin ups (3x8) twice/week if you care for bigger arms as well.

And finally, here is a really great resource on eating right while lifting that I like a lot:

To Be A Beast - Barbell Medicine

The funny thing about nutrition is that it’s both really complicated and really simple all at the same time.

www.barbellmedicine.com

 

[BJJ Shawn]

If you’re wanting Strength and hypertrophy, my vote goes to Faleev, especially the version where you start your cycle at a lighter weight but with more volume (5x8). After 4-6 weeks, once that gets difficult, switch to 5x5. When that stalls switch to 3x3. As a beginner you can probably run this for about 6 months before you start stalling. Eat enough to put on ~2lb/month and sleep at least 7 hours/night. Add in some weighted Dips/chin ups (3x8) twice/week if you care for bigger arms as well.

And finally, here is a really great resource on eating right while lifting that I like a lot:

To Be A Beast - Barbell Medicine

The funny thing about nutrition is that it’s both really complicated and really simple all at the same time.

www.barbellmedicine.com

After having done regular PTTP for the last 6 or so weeks, I have been looking at this program more and more and thinking the same thing. I really have room for overall strength right now and my main reason for doing this all now is because I'm still not back on the BJJ mat so I have the capacity to do it now, where I really can't lift often enough when I'm actively doing BJJ to gain appreciable mass. I have 5 days a week right now to lift, so the Faleev program looks great, and might be a better fit for me than the Bear since I really need to add some strength and experience before I can tackle so many sets.

I was looking at Reload, but it looks like that may be a good step AFTER I run something like Faleev until I stall so I may try that sometime in the future as well:

"You learned your way around the barbell. And made quick gains as a beginner.

Then you moved on to some reliable classic program, like 5×5. You put meat on your bones and pounds on your lifts.

But, finally, you hit the wall. How do you break through it?"

 

[Adachi]

But, finally, you hit the wall. How do you break through it?"

Yeah it looks like the ramping in reload may be one of the best approaches I've seen.

In the 30,000 ft view a deload is universally prescribed.

But the detail and care with with the nature of that deload and subsequent increase, in reload, stands out to me.

Many other deload prescriptions are much more loosely described.

Reload looks like a great way to periodically take an aggressive cycle for increased strength, through a given plateau. Although the book does describe that one shouldn't run RELOAD ad infinitum.

 

[watchnerd]

If you're like me and have really bad levers for DLing (short arms and legs, long torso), then I'm just going to say that high intensity work ('intensity' defined as % of your 1rm) is NOT your friend, and that you will have much better luck building your squat and doing a lot more DL auxiliary work (like stiff-legged DLs/Romanian DLs, GMs, GHR, hyperextensions/back raises, etc) again at lower intensities. That's been my experience at least.

+1

My anthropometry fits into that group, as well.

Although clean pull and snatch pull don't bother me with their lower hips starting position.