Barbell Sore lower back from deadlifts

[Kenny Croxdale]

swings never transferred over to Dl's and vice versa.

Swings and Deadlifts

Both are a hip hinge movement.

Thus, working one elicits a training effect in the other.

Maximum Strength Training Exercise

The Deadlift fall more into being a Strength Training Exercise.

The Westside Powerlifing Powerlifting "Deadlift Speed Training" (which is acutally Power, not Speed) develops Power/Speed to some degree.

Power Output Breakdown

During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women

With this basic breakdown in mind, the power output comparisons of a 100-kilo male lifter in the clean, second pull and deadlift would be as follows.

Clean-------------3430 watts
Second Pull----5260 watts
Deadlift---------1200 watts

The power output of clean pulls is 2.85 time greater than a deadlift. Second pulls are even higher with power outputs 4.38 times l arger than deadlifts. Source: The "No Deadlift" Deadlift Program, Powerlifting USA Magazine - SEPT/01, Croxdale

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T NATION

Research by Dr Bret Contreras has demonstrated that Kettlebell Swing with Heavy Loads produce virtually the same Power Output as Oluympic Movements.

Style	Load (lbs)	Peak Vertical Force (N)	Peak Horizontal Force (N)
Squat Style	70	2,170-2,349	166-182
Squat Style	140	2,431-2,444	278-353
Hip Hinge Style	70	1,935-2,140	340-402
Hip Hinge Style	140	2,325-2,550	499-520

Defining Heavy

A Heavy Swing means performing it with loads that are between one-third and up to 100% of body weight.

That means if a lifter weighted 180 lbs; their Kettlebell Swing would need to be between 60 lbs to 180 lbs.

At a body weight of 190 lbs, I have performed Kettlebell Swing for sets of 5 repetition with 170 lbs (with a Hungarian Core Blaster).

​

The What the Hell Effect: How the Swing Improves Everything​

As per Dr Craig Marker (one of my favorite people)...

Deadlift-Highly Similar

Andy Bolton, the first person to deadlift 1,000 pounds, uses kettlebell swings to improve his “maximal hip drive, speed, and aggression.” The hip hinge in the swing looks similar to how the deadlift is locked out at the top. I have heard of many people who trained for months before a kettlebell certification who also added a great deal of weight to their deadlift (one rep max and higher reps).

The explosiveness that comes from the swing builds the posterior chain muscles, which are important in the squat. Researchers Jason Lake and Mike Lauder found that kettlebell swings helped squat strength in collegiate level athletes by almost 10%. The low bar back squat utilizes more of the posterior chain muscles and may be benefitted by the swing more than the front squat.

Driving Your Butt To The Bar

To finish a Deadlift or Squat, Glute Strength and Power are essential.

In the Deadlift, the butt needs to driven to that bar, for lockout.

In the Squat, the butt need to be driven from being behind the bar to where the butt is sitting direcltly under the bar, for lockout.

The Eccentric Swing Loading and The Stretch Reflec

Kettlebell Swing provides a great deal of Eccentric Loading on the Posterior Chain; more so that the Deadlift.

The Deadlift is more of a Concentric Movement. It is difficult to lower. Thus, most lifter lower the weight in more of a "Guided Free Fall".

In a Kettlebell Swing, as with the Deadlift, the weight is in a "Guided Free Fall". Only in this case of the Kettlebell Swing, the Posterior Chain absorbs the weight. The weight is then repelled back up with the Stretch Reflex.

Due to the "Guided Free Fall"of the Kettlebell in the Swing, the weight of the the Bell is magnified beyond it true load. It amount to performing a Depth Jump off a box.

Thus, the Kettlebell Swing provide greater Eccentric Loading and development of the Stretch Reflex, compared to a Deadlift.

Olympic Movement and Kettlebell Swings

Olympic Movements, as discussed in "The No Deadlift, Deadlift Training" article develop Deadlift Power, as do Kettlebell Swings.

Research has deomonstrated the Hex Bar Jumps elicit a similar Training Effect. The Hex Bar Jump amount to performing an Olympic Low Pull with a Heavy Load to around the waist area and an Olympic High Pull with Moderately Heavy Load to around the chest area.

One of the best posted videos on this site for Olympic Pull Technique is Anna.

I performed Olympic Pulls for years. However, my technique was never that good. So, switched over to Heavy Kettlebell Swings for my Deadlift.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

Kenny pretty much nailed it. In my experience, swings never transferred over to Dl's and vice versa.

It depends. If you DL 200kg and swing 24kg of course it won't help much. Heavy swings done in low reps sets will build great grip strength and explosive hips which will help with either the Off the Floor part of a deadlift or the Lockout part of it.
When I trained and reached 2.5x bw on the DL swings played an important role in my training. As I am training towards a 3x bw DL swings are still there to build speed in my DL.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

The Bear program is one move per day. Pavel has written that it is intended to be done as BP 2x/wk, DL 1x/wk. I also have an old post of his where he told somebody who wanted to do SQ and DL both that this was OK, once per week each. Don't kill yourself trying to do the Bear with PTTP frequency.

Hmm, after reading it several times, I never saw one per week on the deadlifts and twice a week on the BP. I thought they were each done 3x a week…I’m out now, but will have to check my book again when I get home as I may have read it wrong.

Just remember that you take one set with the days max, then one set with 90% and the rest with 80%.

Video your lift and take care of low back rounding.

Yes, this is exactly what I did on my sets, the weight was relatively low for the quick sets. I will add a form check video when I get a chance.

 

[Steve A]

Hmm, after reading it several times, I never saw one per week on the deadlifts and twice a week on the BP. I thought they were each done 3x a week…I’m out now, but will have to check my book again when I get home as I may have read it wrong.

Not in the book. Your reading comprehensions is fine. He has posted it. I copied it to a file somewhere, but I wasn't the only one...

Barbell - Russian Bear Frequency

Hi folks, since I love press and deadlift, I learned about the Russian Bear routine. The book covers all but one question: Is it ok when I cut it in half? Like this: Monday:Bench 20x5 + HIIT Tuesday: Deadlift 20x5 Wednesday: Bench 20x5 Thursday: Deadlift 20x5 Friday: Bench 20x5 + HIIT...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Steve W.]

@BJJ Shawn
I've never even tried the Bear because I just don't like the idea of so much DL volume (up to 20 sets), especially with short rests between sets, and especially trying to do it 3x/week.

Here's a little higher volume PTTP variation I came up with that works well for training 3x/week. It's a nice balance of adding a little more volume the PTTP model but without really becoming a high volume program, and it keeps more of the added volume on lighter days. Rest periods can be generous, similar to what you would use in regular PTTP (3-5 minutes).

This is based on a 4 steps forward/3 steps back wave cycle. You increase the top set poundage as in a normal PTTP structured wave cycle. You add volume by adding additional back off sets of 5 reps. But the twist is that you add more back off sets at the beginning of a wave when the poundage is lower, and fewer back off sets at the end of a wave when the poundage is higher. Therefore, the poundage progresses inversely to the volume (I call this approach "inverse progression PTTP").

At the beginning of a wave, you add 4 back off sets at 90% of the top set, and drop one back off set for each session in a wave. Then you reset at 4 back off sets at the beginning of the next wave. Here's an example to show how it would look, based on a 405lb 1RM, starting at about 70%, and would bring you up to 85% in 4 waves.

285 x 5/255 x 4 x 5
295 x 5/265 x 3 x 5
305 x 5/275 x 2 x 5
315 x 5/285 x 5

295 x 5/265 x 4 x 5
305 x 5/275 x 3 x 5
315 x 5/285 x 2 x 5
325 x 5/295 x 5

etc.

You can manipulate the jumps between steps, and the starting point of each wave, however you want. This one works out to 10lb jumps for both, but they don't have to be the same. I tend to like slightly bigger jumps between sessions and a smaller jump between waves. This gives a nice rhythm of easier, medium, and challenging sessions. You don't have a long ramp of easy sessions at the beginning and a death march of tough sessions at the end.

It doesn't matter that 4 step waves are out of synch with a 3 day training week. It just adds an extra element of variability, which is generally a good thing.

You could also apply the same concept to more of a step cycle. Do a week at one top weight with 4 backoff sets. Go up in weight the next week with 3 back off sets, etc.

I used the inverse progression template (but not the same poundages in the example above) with the trap bar DL and ended up with a personal best (465lbs) in that lift. It's a nice balance of adding a little more volume the PTTP model but without really becoming a high volume program, and it keeps more of the added volume on lighter days.

 

[Whosonfirst]

It depends. If you DL 200kg and swing 24kg of course it won't help much. Heavy swings done in low reps sets will build great grip strength and explosive hips which will help with either the Off the Floor part of a deadlift or the Lockout part of it.
When I trained and reached 2.5x bw on the DL swings played an important role in my training. As I am training towards a 3x bw DL swings are still there to build speed in my DL.

@daniel vintila @kennycro@@aol.com- I was talking in my own case on the transferability(sp) aspects of swings and deadlifts. It's true, I never did swings heavier than double 24's, and that was rare. 32kg's were my usual heavy swings weight. Congrats on being close to a 3X bwt dl.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

@daniel vintila @kennycro@@aol.com- I was talking in my own case on the transferability(sp) aspects of swings and deadlifts. It's true, I never did swings heavier than double 24's, and that was rare. 32kg's were my usual heavy swings weight. Congrats on being close to a 3X bwt dl.

I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. As you shared your experience I also shared mine. We are all here to chat, share experiences and learn from each other. And my strength cycle towards a 3x bw DL only started so it's a long way to go. Keep living strong !

 

[Whosonfirst]

I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. As you shared your experience I also shared mine. We are all here to chat, share experiences and learn from each other. And my strength cycle towards a 3x bw DL only started so it's a long way to go. Keep living strong !

Not at all. I'll be pulling for you to reach it. I wished I'd done more pulling when younger. It was mostly bp and back squat IME. I've only started liking DL's since retiring.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

@BJJ Shawn
I've never even tried the Bear because I just don't like the idea of so much DL volume (up to 20 sets), especially with short rests between sets, and especially trying to do it 3x/week.

Here's a little higher volume PTTP variation I came up with that works well for training 3x/week. It's a nice balance of adding a little more volume the PTTP model but without really becoming a high volume program, and it keeps more of the added volume on lighter days. Rest periods can be generous, similar to what you would use in regular PTTP (3-5 minutes).

This is based on a 4 steps forward/3 steps back wave cycle. You increase the top set poundage as in a normal PTTP structured wave cycle. You add volume by adding additional back off sets of 5 reps. But the twist is that you add more back off sets at the beginning of a wave when the poundage is lower, and fewer back off sets at the end of a wave when the poundage is higher. Therefore, the poundage progresses inversely to the volume (I call this approach "inverse progression PTTP").

At the beginning of a wave, you add 4 back off sets at 90% of the top set, and drop one back off set for each session in a wave. Then you reset at 4 back off sets at the beginning of the next wave. Here's an example to show how it would look, based on a 405lb 1RM, starting at about 70%, and would bring you up to 85% in 4 waves.

285 x 5/255 x 4 x 5
295 x 5/265 x 3 x 5
305 x 5/275 x 2 x 5
315 x 5/285 x 5

295 x 5/265 x 4 x 5
305 x 5/275 x 3 x 5
315 x 5/285 x 2 x 5
325 x 5/295 x 5

etc.

You can manipulate the jumps between steps, and the starting point of each wave, however you want. This one works out to 10lb jumps for both, but they don't have to be the same. I tend to like slightly bigger jumps between sessions and a smaller jump between waves. This gives a nice rhythm of easier, medium, and challenging sessions. You don't have a long ramp of easy sessions at the beginning and a death march of tough sessions at the end.

It doesn't matter that 4 step waves are out of synch with a 3 day training week. It just adds an extra element of variability, which is generally a good thing.

You could also apply the same concept to more of a step cycle. Do a week at one top weight with 4 backoff sets. Go up in weight the next week with 3 back off sets, etc.

I used the inverse progression template (but not the same poundages in the example above) with the trap bar DL and ended up with a personal best (465lbs) in that lift. It's a nice balance of adding a little more volume the PTTP model but without really becoming a high volume program, and it keeps more of the added volume on lighter days.

I really like that. I’m not opposed to doing regular PTTP, and I’m definitely a beginner so it would be great for me to add more strength. I have an hour every morning, up to 5 days a week that I can practice, so keeping it to 3 days a week is not a requirement of mine, but I really like this amount of extra back off sets to try and get some additional hypertrophy as I’m lacking in that area as well.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I’ve been driving all morning so I had some time to think. While I definitely still want to do a form check, a lot of what has been posted says the same basic thing: I don’t have enough experience with this lift to even know what my beginning is or what my limits are, so I really need to put more time into basic strength work.

My thought was that I could do both strength and hypertrophy and the extra sets being only 80% of that days max would give me a good amount of practice on the movements while at the same time doing what I wanted, but it appears I was far overestimating how much work I could really do. Based on how it was written, I thought I would be doing 3 days a week, but it appears that may have been a bit too ambitious.

If I was to only do one day of deadlifts per week but tried to go all out, I could see myself doing maybe 10 sets before form goes bad. It would help trigger some hypertrophy, but only one of those sets was a top strength set. However, doing regular PTTP 5 days a week I would still get 10 sets in, but would have 5 sets of those at a max strength set.

Considering my goal is NOT to be a bodybuilder as I’m only looking to add probably 10 pounds, I think it may be better to take the advice given and go do regular PTTP for a cycle or two and reevaluate where I am after that. Who’s to say after 6 months of PTTP and proper nutrition I couldn’t add that 5-10 pounds while focusing strictly on strength which is really what I should be focused on anyway. I may run a cycle completely as written, then try Steve’s waviness version or the PTTP/S&S cycle Pavel wrote about to keep things interesting, but that still means starting with PTTP and just doing it.

 

[Pete L]

I did almost a year of Easy Strength when I started lifting at around 40 years old. 2 sets of 5 reps, 3 times a week with modest progression over the year on DL, SQ and BP.
I was playing the long game and recovering from surgery. My focus initially was to support my martial art training and get a good base to avoid further injury, hence the cautious approach.

 

[LukeV]

I’ve been driving all morning so I had some time to think. While I definitely still want to do a form check, a lot of what has been posted says the same basic thing: I don’t have enough experience with this lift to even know what my beginning is or what my limits are, so I really need to put more time into basic strength work.

My thought was that I could do both strength and hypertrophy and the extra sets being only 80% of that days max would give me a good amount of practice on the movements while at the same time doing what I wanted, but it appears I was far overestimating how much work I could really do. Based on how it was written, I thought I would be doing 3 days a week, but it appears that may have been a bit too ambitious.

If I was to only do one day of deadlifts per week but tried to go all out, I could see myself doing maybe 10 sets before form goes bad. It would help trigger some hypertrophy, but only one of those sets was a top strength set. However, doing regular PTTP 5 days a week I would still get 10 sets in, but would have 5 sets of those at a max strength set.

Considering my goal is NOT to be a bodybuilder as I’m only looking to add probably 10 pounds, I think it may be better to take the advice given and go do regular PTTP for a cycle or two and reevaluate where I am after that. Who’s to say after 6 months of PTTP and proper nutrition I couldn’t add that 5-10 pounds while focusing strictly on strength which is really what I should be focused on anyway. I may run a cycle completely as written, then try Steve’s waviness version or the PTTP/S&S cycle Pavel wrote about to keep things interesting, but that still means starting with PTTP and just doing it.

An easy compromise is to follow PTTP programming and every second or third session add a single (80%) set taken close to failure. That will be sufficient for growth stimulus and recovery should be adequate without impacting significantly on your PTTP program. If you think it is impacting, just add the extra set on your fifth day, before your two days off. Then revisit your hypertrophy goals in a few months

 

[BJJ Shawn]

An easy compromise is to follow PTTP programming and every second or third session add a single (80%) set taken close to failure. That will be sufficient for growth stimulus and recovery should be adequate without impacting significantly on your PTTP program. If you think it is impacting, just add the extra set on your fifth day, before your two days off. Then revisit your hypertrophy goals in a few months

Yeah, I like that. Would you think it would be best to add a set like that to both the deadlift and press on the same day, assuming recovery is ok? Is there any benefit to doing them on the same day vs splitting them up?

 

[Adachi]

I’ll take a video to see how bad it really is.

BTW - I enjoy your skepticism of your own form. I can't say how many times filming myself has revealed my own poor form despite my inability to accurately sense it during the sets. Most recently I discovered my back was out of round on the snatch. I did not detect that at all during the set, only in the aftermath. After filming a few times I was able to correct it.

 

[LukeV]

Yeah, I like that. Would you think it would be best to add a set like that to both the deadlift and press on the same day, assuming recovery is ok? Is there any benefit to doing them on the same day vs splitting them up?

I wouldn’t worry either way - whatever feels best

 

[watchnerd]

I wouldn’t do the Bear with deadlifts at all. Anything more than 10 deadlift reps per session (eg Rule of 10 lifting) causes me lower back pain, then dysfunction. I know this because I have attempted higher volume deadlifting many many times. Like going back to your crazy ex-partner because the sex is great, it always ends the same way!

As a weightlifter, I almost never do a proper PL-style DL, but I do a crap ton of clean pulls and their variations.

For heavy clean pulls, 3 x 3 is where I top out in a given training session, so <10 total reps.

But...

I can much handle much higher volume of Romanian Deadlifts, even at heavier weights.

I've never really been sure why.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

@BJJ Shawn
I've never even tried the Bear because I just don't like the idea of so much DL volume (up to 20 sets), especially with short rests between sets, and especially trying to do it 3x/week.

Here's a little higher volume PTTP variation I came up with that works well for training 3x/week. It's a nice balance of adding a little more volume the PTTP model but without really becoming a high volume program, and it keeps more of the added volume on lighter days. Rest periods can be generous, similar to what you would use in regular PTTP (3-5 minutes).

This is based on a 4 steps forward/3 steps back wave cycle. You increase the top set poundage as in a normal PTTP structured wave cycle. You add volume by adding additional back off sets of 5 reps. But the twist is that you add more back off sets at the beginning of a wave when the poundage is lower, and fewer back off sets at the end of a wave when the poundage is higher. Therefore, the poundage progresses inversely to the volume (I call this approach "inverse progression PTTP").

At the beginning of a wave, you add 4 back off sets at 90% of the top set, and drop one back off set for each session in a wave. Then you reset at 4 back off sets at the beginning of the next wave. Here's an example to show how it would look, based on a 405lb 1RM, starting at about 70%, and would bring you up to 85% in 4 waves.

285 x 5/255 x 4 x 5
295 x 5/265 x 3 x 5
305 x 5/275 x 2 x 5
315 x 5/285 x 5

295 x 5/265 x 4 x 5
305 x 5/275 x 3 x 5
315 x 5/285 x 2 x 5
325 x 5/295 x 5

etc.

You can manipulate the jumps between steps, and the starting point of each wave, however you want. This one works out to 10lb jumps for both, but they don't have to be the same. I tend to like slightly bigger jumps between sessions and a smaller jump between waves. This gives a nice rhythm of easier, medium, and challenging sessions. You don't have a long ramp of easy sessions at the beginning and a death march of tough sessions at the end.

It doesn't matter that 4 step waves are out of synch with a 3 day training week. It just adds an extra element of variability, which is generally a good thing.

You could also apply the same concept to more of a step cycle. Do a week at one top weight with 4 backoff sets. Go up in weight the next week with 3 back off sets, etc.

I used the inverse progression template (but not the same poundages in the example above) with the trap bar DL and ended up with a personal best (465lbs) in that lift. It's a nice balance of adding a little more volume the PTTP model but without really becoming a high volume program, and it keeps more of the added volume on lighter days.

So, I just finished up a PTTP cycle of deadlift and decided I am going to give this a try. I finished the last cycle at a 5RM of 280 lbs, so using that number and an online calculator it estimates my 1rm at 315 lbs so that is what I based my calculations on. For anyone who cares, I have created a quick spreadsheet to see how this corresponds to a 4 days forward/3 day back wave on the regular PTTP wave progression. The bottom line, is over a 6.5 week timeframe (necessary to finish the last wave instead of stopping right at 6 weeks), the total weight lifted for this inverse progression is 83,500 lbs and 350 reps, vs PTTP at 77,000 lbs and 320 reps. That is starting at 70% of my 1rm for both progressions (225lbs) and using 10 lb jumps with Steve's plan 3 days a week, and 5 lb jumps with PTTP plan 5 days a week.

Am I correct that if I can recover OK, even though the overall volume and tonnage is fairly similar (less than 10% difference over a 6 week period), by concentrating the work on 3 days instead of 5 it should elicit more hypertrophy than the regular PTTP?

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

So, I just finished up a PTTP cycle of deadlift and decided I am going to give this a try. I finished the last cycle at a 5RM of 280 lbs, so using that number and an online calculator it estimates my 1rm at 315 lbs so that is what I based my calculations on. For anyone who cares, I have created a quick spreadsheet to see how this corresponds to a 4 days forward/3 day back wave on the regular PTTP wave progression. The bottom line, is over a 6.5 week timeframe (necessary to finish the last wave instead of stopping right at 6 weeks), the total weight lifted for this inverse progression is 83,500 lbs and 350 reps, vs PTTP at 77,000 lbs and 320 reps. That is starting at 70% of my 1rm for both progressions (225lbs) and using 10 lb jumps with Steve's plan 3 days a week, and 5 lb jumps with PTTP plan 5 days a week.

Am I correct that if I can recover OK, even though the overall volume and tonnage is fairly similar (less than 10% difference over a 6 week period), by concentrating the work on 3 days instead of 5 it should elicit more hypertrophy than the regular PTTP?

Personally I think that your increments should be 10 lbs also in regular PTTP. Volume should rise some.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Personally I think that your increments should be 10 lbs also in regular PTTP. Volume should rise some.

The problem for me is that means finishing a cycle in a week if I train 5 days a week. How would I get around that problem if I increased my lifts 10 lbs a session? Even with a wave, I would max out in about 8 days unless I start at ridiculously light weight.

 

[Steve Freides]

would this indicate poor form?

Throw away that workout. Start your cycle over. Add one set of 5 to whatever you’ve been doing, no more. E.g., if you’ve been doing 2 sets, now do 3. Build up gradually.

-S-