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Other/Mixed Sports applications and specifically... jump training...

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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GeoffWai

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So I am not trying to be lacking focus and jump around different programs (no pun intended :p)

I have in other parts of the forum posted my current progress on ROP, trying to adapt it as I grow along my practice.
This is more a discussion to equip myself with the understanding for how to structure future plans / growth...

So I know a lot of Pavel's philosophy applies to combat sports, and a lot of us here that works with KBs got started from a combat sport and then into KBs...
I did not come from that route and I actually found Pavel's books, read them and just clicked with me on the style and philosophy (read some Dan John as well...)

Obviously everyone should be striving for GPP, and there's a lot of modality to choose from. What I really want to say is I find it difficult sometimes to try to connect the dots with actual sports application when I try to find articles or forum posts... I understand that having proper hip hinge, endurance, and proper form for power transfer, it can signifcantly improve how one jumps, runs, etc... but I think that is so wrapped within the science and a deep understanding of the mechanics of KB exercise, it's not always immediate evident.

So as I travel down my ROP path, I'm looking forward to:

1. Trying to get back into some basketball; starting with basic drills, shooting, some conditioing... doing this on variety days of my ROP
2. Looking for what's next... do I go back to cycles of S&S / PTTP and then rotate back to ROP until i hit the goals?
3. I understand it will take time, but does Double KB exercises have broader sports application... but seems everyone is hesitant on ROTK... do STRONG! ? Other programs on the app?
4. I've read Jump Attack by Tim Grover (Michael Jordan's trainer) a while ago. I see very specific plyometrics that improves the bounding and reactive side of jump mechanics, and recently I looked at a lot of so called jump programs online... I must admit with all the different factions dissing each other... sounding more like "snake oil"... and the programs are just putting together what we know... I don't find any epiphanies...

So then I found the only jump article... Pavel on GtG Jump training. Yes, I understand the philosophy... now how do I apply it???

Thoughts...

A) I am unable to add pull-ups between ladders of my ROP Pushes... since I do a 3min rest between ladders... was thinking of doing 1min of jump ropes in that 3 min rest...

B) I stopped reading Q&D when in the preface Pavel warned about it being more advanced... and I am not... but from what I understand it develops some explosiveness, and the ability to master pistols is something that entices me about jump training correlations...

C) Scour the internet for jump related plyos type exercise to do my ROP variety days...

D) Find more things to do when this cycle of ROP is done, things that works well with S&S / PTTP

In the GtG Jump article Pavel did warn, get balanced, get symmetric first.

I guess at the end this is more a "what does everyone think" kind of post....

Thanks!
 
I think you're going to get paralysis by analysis. It kind of sounds like you want to do everything all at once. Unless you are a coach or are an athlete of some experience, GPP and SPP aren't even things most people need to concern themselves with. Most people would just be better off getting leaner (and usually lighter), stronger, and healthier.

My knowledge of the ROP, etc is a little rusty, but pulling out my copy of Enter The Kettlebell, you could do much worse than following the weekly plans given:
M = heavy presses, pulls
T = off
W = light presses, pulls
TH = variety
F = medium press, pulls
S = variety
SU = off

M = medium presses, pulls
T = variety
W = off
TH = heavy presses, pulls
F = light presses, pulls
S = off
SU = variety

I might suggest the following:
M = heavy
W = light
F = medium
+ two days of variety wherever you fit them in. And, not worry too much about making Friday (or whatever day you decide) "medium". Most people are bad at doing "medium" - they either go too hard or not hard enough. So just gauge your "medium" day on feel and don't beat yourself up about it if you decide to go easy and just refine technique/skills. For your variety days, do the things you think you need, or the things you're itching to do that aren't in the ROP (or whatever program you're going w.).
 
As a beginner, I would recommend you to first concentrate on building a strength base and doing sport specific drills in addition, if not just the sport itself.

So heavy strength training, basketball, maybe some jumps and throws, however your practice goes. You have a basketball coach?

I think the more specific strength training, power training, etc, can wait. If I remember right Pavel himself wrote how soviet coaches wouldn't have a trainee do plyometrics before they could do a double bodyweight squat.
 
I find it difficult sometimes to try to connect the dots with actual sports application when I try to find articles or forum posts...

In part that's because, for some (maybe even most) sports, the best approach is GPP + spending time in your sport.

-S-
 
My $0.02 (and I'm not a trainer): ROP isn't a program, it's a job. Once the volume goes up, it's a big time & energy commitment. Not what I'd personally recommend to somebody looking to get more practice in a sport. Not to say some pressing won't be a good thing... just, maybe not ROP?

If I was wanting to get into basketball, a couple days a week I'd do some plyometric jumps - low reps, lots of rest, high power - then some kind of weighted squat - KB front squats could be a good option. After that, some clean & press, just to get evened out. Won't get you to a 1/2 BW press probably, but outta be good for shooting hoops.
 
1. Trying to get back into some basketball; starting with basic drills, shooting, some conditioing... doing this on variety days of my ROP
As a lifelong basketball player, here are my recommendations for basketball training:

1. Play as much as possible with and against the best competition available.

2. Work on your individual skills in a focused, consistent and purposeful way, and force yourself to work on weaknesses. The better your skills, the better player you are. A good player who gets stronger or jumps higher will be better. A bad player who improves his skills will be better. But for the most part, a bad player who gets stronger or jumps higher will still be bad.

3. Do some basic minimalist strength training. DL or Trap bar DL, Double KB front SQ, Push press (Double KB or barbell -- use lighter weights and focus on a quick dip and explosive leg drive to power the bar to lockout, not on maximum weight), KB swings or snatches, and a row or pullup is all you need. You can supplement with pushups and OS crawling (check out the Original Strength YouTube channel). You don't need much more than this.

Programming can be bone simple. For grinds, just 2 or 3 of sets of 5 at a moderately challenging poundage, and add weight when it starts to feel easy. For an off season program (where you aren't regularly playing competitive games, even if you don't have a formal competitive season) there are more options, but if you are playing/practicing with any kind of regularity and intensity, keep it simple. For swings or snatches, I've found A+A style training to have great carry over to basketball. Use a heavy weight you can still swing or snatch with authority, and do short sets (5 or fewer) for 20-40 sets with very generous rests (to the point where it feels like you are being lazy). Q&D is another alternative that is a little more intense, but takes less time. It makes a nice complement to longer, more relaxed A+A sessions. When I'm playing regularly, I mostly avoid anything that would hamper me from playing the next day, or beyond an extra recovery day at most. One of my favorite Dan John lines is, "Train today like you are planning to set a personal record tomorrow. Then train the same way tomorrow." So when I'm playing basketball regularly, I translate that to, "Train today like you are going to be playing basketball tomorrow. Then play basketball tomorrow."

The better player you are, the less your lifts matter. You are a basketball player, not a powerlifter. Kevin Durant could not do a single bench press rep with 185lbs at the NBA combine. More important is whether you can develop the skill of generating tension to root and hold position. Can you effectively use leverage to hold your position or move an opponent off of his? If your only skills are setting screens and rebounding, then size and strength become more central to your identity as a player, but mostly an ounce of skill is worth a pound of weight room strength. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you will turn yourself into a best in the weight room, then just go out on the court and dominate. Skinny kids will make you look silly.

4. Build a big aerobic base (high volume of sustained low intensity locomotion). If you are playing a lot and doing a lot of on-court drills, you don't need any sort of intervals or high intensity cardio. It will be redundant and just eat up recovery capacity. But a big aerobic base will enable you to recover quicker from hard efforts on the court, enable you to still be able to go hard at the end of games, and enable you to recover better from practicing and training. Larry Bird, who would often run a few miles early in the day on game days, called this "cardio" training, with the dual meanings of literally training the cardiovascular system, and figuratively being able to resist fatigue and "play with heart" at the end of games.

Ditto for plyometrics. IMO, a basketball player does not need plyometrics. You should be getting a ton of plyometric type activity just within practicing and competing in your sport. Extra plyometrics would just be redundant and eat up recovery capacity. I can't tell you how many scrawny middle and high school kids I've seen become explosive athletes just by basic strength training (not up to powerlifting numbers, just "no longer weak") and playing a lot of basketball.

However, I love band shuffle drills for basketball. They teach quick feet, especially deceleration, and rooting. Here's a demo, but you can also do these forward and backward in addition to laterally. I wouldn't do these as cardio, but stay fresh and be as quick and explosive as possible (also, if you do these while tired, it's easy to get sloppy and let yourself get pulled off balance):

Hope this helps.
 
The better player you are, the less your lifts matter. You are a basketball player, not a powerlifter. Kevin Durant could not do a single bench press rep with 185lbs at the NBA combine. More important is whether you can develop the skill of generating tension to root and hold position. Can you effectively use leverage to hold your position or move an opponent off of his? If your only skills are setting screens and rebounding, then size and strength become more central to your identity as a player, but mostly an ounce of skill is worth a pound of weight room strength. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you will turn yourself into a best in the weight room, then just go out on the court and dominate. Skinny kids will make you look silly.
Heresy!

That said, this paragraph is brilliant.

Ditto for plyometrics. IMO, a basketball player does not need plyometrics. You should be getting a ton of plyometric type activity just within practicing and competing in your sport. Extra plyometrics would just be redundant and eat up recovery capacity.
I mostly agree here... but I do wonder if there's some value in working long-rest-max-power jumping. While playing, you're usually not getting to work a max-power jump - you're running, shuffling, twisting, reaching, jumping, and all under a state of mild fatigue. I suppose one could argue that since you rarely get to use your max-power jump, maybe it's not applicable anyway... just seems to me like there might be something there, if used sparingly.

But, that said, I'm a lousy basketball player. Definitely in the round-mound-of-rebound category.
 
I mostly agree here... but I do wonder if there's some value in working long-rest-max-power jumping. While playing, you're usually not getting to work a max-power jump - you're running, shuffling, twisting, reaching, jumping, and all under a state of mild fatigue. I suppose one could argue that since you rarely get to use your max-power jump, maybe it's not applicable anyway... just seems to me like there might be something there, if used sparingly.
Could there be some value in specific jump training? Possibly, but I think it's marginal and mostly not worth the time or energy. There's so much jumping just in basketball-specific drills and game play. And then you made the rest of the argument against it yourself -- jumping in a game rarely uses the same mechanics as a max vertical jump in isolation.

But, that said, I'm a lousy basketball player. Definitely in the round-mound-of-rebound category.
I get that it's a casual comment and meant to be self-deprecating, so I feel a little silly for what I'm about to write, but I'm a big Barkley fan so I can't help myself...

This is kind of like saying, "I'm definitely in the 'Greek Freak' category."

The "Round Mound of Rebound" (Charles Barkley, for non-fans) was one of the greatest players and most explosive athletes in basketball history. He was a hall-of-fame, 11x All-NBA (5x 1st team), 11x All-Star, league MVP player. In terms of athleticism, Zion Williamson is "in the round-mound-of-rebound category," except he's comparatively a much worse rebounder.
 
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Heresy!

That said, this paragraph is brilliant.


I mostly agree here... but I do wonder if there's some value in working long-rest-max-power jumping. While playing, you're usually not getting to work a max-power jump - you're running, shuffling, twisting, reaching, jumping, and all under a state of mild fatigue. I suppose one could argue that since you rarely get to use your max-power jump, maybe it's not applicable anyway... just seems to me like there might be something there, if used sparingly.

But, that said, I'm a lousy basketball player. Definitely in the round-mound-of-rebound category.
I read an interesting study several years ago with volleyball players. They were divided into strength and strength plus plyometrics groups and both groups continued their normal sports practice several days per week. Both groups had the same increase in athletic performance and the researchers concluded that the extra plyometrics didn't add anything.
 
You want to add a few bounding drills and skips? That's probably fine, but as Steve said, with basketball practice, players are getting tons of plyometric work as it is.
I don't think plyos are necessarily worthless or injurious, but the way most S&C/fitness programs integrate them that's more often the case than not.
 
Could there be some value in specific jump training? Possibly, but I think it's marginal and mostly not worth the time or energy. There's so much jumping just in basketball-specific drills and game play. And then you made the rest of the argument against it yourself -- jumping in a game rarely uses the same mechanics as a max vertical jump in isolation.


I get that it's a casual comment and meant to be self-deprecating, so I feel a little silly for what I'm about to write, but I'm a big Barkley fan so I can't help myself...

This is kind of like saying, "I'm definitely in the 'Greek Freak' category."

The "Round Mound of Rebound" (Charles Barkley, for non-fans) was one of the greatest players and most explosive athletes in basketball history. He was a hall-of-fame, 11x All-NBA (5x 1st team), 11x All-Star, league MVP player. In terms of athleticism, Zion Williamson is "in the round-mound-of-rebound category," except he's comparatively a much worse rebounder.
True story, and his in season and off season training consisted of golf and golf.
 
Thank you everyone for a much appreciated discussion on the matter, it is much clearer for me on what I want to / should do in my mind now.
@Steve W. + @WhatWouldHulkDo ... very insightful and much appreciated.

Just for some follow ups...

1. Doing ROP now just as a step towards ROTK and other challenges / goals Pavel has set a long the way. And yes, I find the ROP protocols very draining and I do have days which I struggle to recover.

2. I take the point on the actually playing time actually works well for all the other conditioning work and should be doing more drills. Will think about that on how I work things in.

3. I am not comfortable going back to my REC league yet as I have literally laid off it for about 10 years. So part of my motivation was to get back into some proper form before I get myself killed... I did attempt about 5 years ago to just go play some pick up but I was a mess, and I hurt myself in the process too...

4. So I just want to finish this current cycle of ROP, and when I do probably rotate to something more minimalistic like PTTP / S&S, and actually play more ball or at least get more court time with drills etc...

5. Just out of curiosity if anyone can answer this... should I "own" Simple, hit some BW benchmark on DL (via PTTP), and some benchmark on Naked Warrior before I attempt Q&D? TBH, pistols are a bit challenging for me, I can do it with assistance from a TRX
 
I guess at the end this is more a "what does everyone think" kind of post....
Not directly related to programming, but here are some of my thought:
- How heavy are you? Do you have a great amount of weight that you want to lose?
- Do you have any feet/ankle/knee problems?

Take care of this first. Then:
starting with basic drills, shooting, some conditioing... doing this on variety days of my ROP
This. After a few week, judge your performance. What is good, what is not? Choosing next program/adjust your training based on that.
 
Thank you everyone for a much appreciated discussion on the matter, it is much clearer for me on what I want to / should do in my mind now.
@Steve W. + @WhatWouldHulkDo ... very insightful and much appreciated.

Just for some follow ups...

1. Doing ROP now just as a step towards ROTK and other challenges / goals Pavel has set a long the way. And yes, I find the ROP protocols very draining and I do have days which I struggle to recover.

2. I take the point on the actually playing time actually works well for all the other conditioning work and should be doing more drills. Will think about that on how I work things in.

3. I am not comfortable going back to my REC league yet as I have literally laid off it for about 10 years. So part of my motivation was to get back into some proper form before I get myself killed... I did attempt about 5 years ago to just go play some pick up but I was a mess, and I hurt myself in the process too...

4. So I just want to finish this current cycle of ROP, and when I do probably rotate to something more minimalistic like PTTP / S&S, and actually play more ball or at least get more court time with drills etc...

5. Just out of curiosity if anyone can answer this... should I "own" Simple, hit some BW benchmark on DL (via PTTP), and some benchmark on Naked Warrior before I attempt Q&D? TBH, pistols are a bit challenging for me, I can do it with assistance from a TRX
You can benefit from Q&D prior to being at the Simple standard.
 
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