Barbell Squat and deadlift as a GPP to kettlebell training

[masa]

Hi, I want to train with the bells around 2-3 times a week and add barbell squat and deadlift to it. I'd like to do the squat and the deadlift in the same workout. Kettlebell sessions would consist at least the clean, the swing and the push press. Some sources says that the half squat and the Romanian deadlift would be the the best accompanion to the kettlebell lifting, but I'm not sure about that. Any advises?

 

[Antti]

I would build a big base with the plain variations before adding any spices. That said, variations like the RDL are excellent and better for some people and purposes.

 

[John K]

Hi, I want to train with the bells around 2-3 times a week and add barbell squat and deadlift to it. I'd like to do the squat and the deadlift in the same workout. Kettlebell sessions would consist at least the clean, the swing and the push press. Some sources says that the half squat and the Romanian deadlift would be the the best accompanion to the kettlebell lifting, but I'm not sure about that. Any advises?

I’m curious, do you recall why the half squat was recommended? A full squat I’d totally dig.

Adding a squat/deadlift day sounds great! There’s a million ways to go with it (back squat and deadlift, front squat and deadlift, front squat and stiff legged deadlift, zercher squat, zercher deadlifts) ... if for advise you’re wanting specifics I can share an idea.

 

[Bauer]

Or maybe only add the Zercher Squat, which is reported to have great carryover to DLs.

Free Tutorial from the SF Barbell Course

StrongFirst: Training Center

strongfirst.skilltrain.com

The Best Squat Exercise | StrongFirst

Which squat variation gives you the biggest bang for your buck? Let's go through the possibilities and I'll explain the reasons for my choice of best squat.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[MikeTheBear]

Many girevoy sport competitors train a half or quarter squat for very high reps to build strength and endurance for the leg drive portion of the jerk. If you want to compete in girevoy sport then this is something to consider. Personally I only like full squats.

For deadlifts, any variation will be beneficial. One GS competitor recommended doing a sumo DL for high reps using a stance similar to your snatch stance. Here's the article that discusses that, scroll down for the videos:

An Introduction to Kettlebell Sport Training Methodologies - Breaking Muscle

Click Here to Start Your Free Kettlebell Sport Workouts I treat kettlebell sport like another job. In fact, if you add up the total number of hours I spend training each week it would definitely qualify for at least a part-time position. Click Here to Start Your Free Kettlebell Sport Workouts I...

breakingmuscle.com

 

[masa]

I would build a big base with the plain variations before adding any spices. That said, variations like the RDL are excellent and better for some people and purposes.

Thanks! Yes, plain variations will be in the mix at some point. But I have to start SLDL or similar first and box squats due to my limitations. Right hip aches because my sacrum gets stuck at some times because of my back problems. Even goblet squats gave me the gray hair at some point, but face-the-wall squat has given me my mobility back and belief of greatness about squats.

I’m curious, do you recall why the half squat was recommended? A full squat I’d totally dig.

Adding a squat/deadlift day sounds great! There’s a million ways to go with it (back squat and deadlift, front squat and deadlift, front squat and stiff legged deadlift, zercher squat, zercher deadlifts) ... if for advise you’re wanting specifics I can share an idea.

Thanks! @MikeTheBear explained well below, why half squats are recommended. I'm not going to train GS or compete at it per se, but going to do a longer sets with a lighter weight. If you have an idea to share, I'm listening.

Or maybe only add the Zercher Squat, which is reported to have great carryover to DLs.

Free Tutorial:

StrongFirst: Training Center

strongfirst.skilltrain.com

The Best Squat Exercise | StrongFirst

Which squat variation gives you the biggest bang for your buck? Let's go through the possibilities and I'll explain the reasons for my choice of best squat.

www.strongfirst.com

Thanks! Zercher is in the bucket list. Definitely going to use it in the future.

Many girevoy sport competitors train a half or quarter squat for very high reps to build strength and endurance for the leg drive portion of the jerk. If you want to compete in girevoy sport then this is something to consider. Personally I only like full squats.

For deadlifts, any variation will be beneficial. One GS competitor recommended doing a sumo DL for high reps using a stance similar to your snatch stance. Here's the article that discusses that, scroll down for the videos:

An Introduction to Kettlebell Sport Training Methodologies - Breaking Muscle

Click Here to Start Your Free Kettlebell Sport Workouts I treat kettlebell sport like another job. In fact, if you add up the total number of hours I spend training each week it would definitely qualify for at least a part-time position. Click Here to Start Your Free Kettlebell Sport Workouts I...

breakingmuscle.com

Thanks! I've had a lot of good advises from you and @Sauli about GS training. That sumo DL with the snatch stance sounds a great variation. Definitely going to try that too.

 

[Antti]

Thanks! Yes, plain variations will be in the mix at some point. But I have to start SLDL or similar first and box squats due to my limitations. Right hip aches because my sacrum gets stuck at some times because of my back problems. Even goblet squats gave me the gray hair at some point, but face-the-wall squat has given me my mobility back and belief of greatness about squats.

Thanks! @MikeTheBear explained well below, why half squats are recommended. I'm not going to train GS or compete at it per se, but going to do a longer sets with a lighter weight. If you have an idea to share, I'm listening.

Thanks! Zercher is in the bucket list. Definitely going to use it in the future.

Thanks! I've had a lot of good advises from you and @Sauli about GS training. That sumo DL with the snatch stance sounds a great variation. Definitely going to try that too.

By all means, start with a ROM you're comfortable with. Box squats are great, I really love how they feel and I believe it's a great exercise in general. The RDL could also work better as it's less ROM and starts from the top and you get a stretch, it's also a great exercise and one I really enjoy.

One thing to consider is what back angle your back likes best. If it likes lots of lean or little of it.

 

[masa]

By all means, start with a ROM you're comfortable with. Box squats are great, I really love how they feel and I believe it's a great exercise in general. The RDL could also work better as it's less ROM and starts from the top and you get a stretch, it's also a great exercise and one I really enjoy.

One thing to consider is what back angle your back likes best. If it likes lots of lean or little of it.

Thanks for your reply! I have to try what back angle feels best at the moment. I believe that front squat will be better than back squat. I might even try power clean too. I did Rippetoe's Starting Strength a lot in the past and I'm familiar with the movements. I still have my old OLY-shoes, but unfortunately sold my bar and weights. Stupid as I am.

 

[Alexander Halford]

Yes, I'm sure that barbell lifts will be a great companion for the kettlebells.
As for the exercise choice, and your back problem... I would pick trap bar deadlift. It has a bit of its own squat pattern, and the deadluft/squat portion can be very well dialed just by changing a moving pattern without changing an exercise and the tool. Even with light weight + resistance bands it can be a great rehab tool for you.

 

[masa]

Yes, I'm sure that barbell lifts will be a great companion for the kettlebells.
As for the exercise choice, and your back problem... I would pick trap bar deadlift. It has a bit of its own squat pattern, and the deadluft/squat portion can be very well dialed just by changing a moving pattern without changing an exercise and the tool. Even with light weight + resistance bands it can be a great rehab tool for you.

Thanks! Yes trap bar is a great tool. I have to check out what kind of tools we have @ job place’s gym. Maybe going to go commercial gyms next year, if Covid is over. My new deployer sponsors stuff.

 

[John K]

@masa since you asked, this is what I would do - pick two lifts, choose to focus on one. Each week, work up to a heavy 5 (not a max)' then take 5-10% off and do 1-4 sets of 3-6 (goal is to accumulate total 20-25 reps). Follow that with your not-focus lift for 2-5 sets of 3-12. The reason I'd suggest having a focus/not-focus lift is I would have a hard time building both at the same time in the same session. I did this about two years ago. I would take the day after this barbell session off, or make it a lighter recovery kettle bell day.

An example:
Lifts - deadlift focus, front squat not-focus

Deadlift to a heavy 5 (150kg x5), back offs - 135kg x5 reps x 4 sets
- next week will do 152-3kg x5 + 137kg x5x4
Front squat 90kg x6 reps x 3 sets
- when each week you try to add more reps, when you hit 3x10, increase the weight by 5%
- this can be easy to train high or low reps depending what you want - eg 5 sets of 3, adding weight each week or 2 sets of 8-12, increasing weight by 5% when you max out your rep range.

This was one of my most productive ways I trained barbells and worked great when I couldn't plan a cycle off a max, or when I was looking to just build strength. The back off volume was mentally easier for me than sets across, and I'm a big fan of "over warm up" at a weight heavier than your work sets.

This works great for singles too - work up to a single, take 15-25% off and get some volume in. This can be done in a linear fashion (each week your heavy single and your back off sets get a little heavier until you can't maintain either increasing the single or completing the back offs) or in an "auto regulate" fashion where you work up to a "every day max" and then build volume afterwards. I would not recommend either of these unless you're fairly experienced with the lift.

 

[masa]

@masa since you asked, this is what I would do - pick two lifts, choose to focus on one. Each week, work up to a heavy 5 (not a max)' then take 5-10% off and do 1-4 sets of 3-6 (goal is to accumulate total 20-25 reps). Follow that with your not-focus lift for 2-5 sets of 3-12. The reason I'd suggest having a focus/not-focus lift is I would have a hard time building both at the same time in the same session. I did this about two years ago. I would take the day after this barbell session off, or make it a lighter recovery kettle bell day.

An example:
Lifts - deadlift focus, front squat not-focus

Deadlift to a heavy 5 (150kg x5), back offs - 135kg x5 reps x 4 sets
- next week will do 152-3kg x5 + 137kg x5x4
Front squat 90kg x6 reps x 3 sets
- when each week you try to add more reps, when you hit 3x10, increase the weight by 5%
- this can be easy to train high or low reps depending what you want - eg 5 sets of 3, adding weight each week or 2 sets of 8-12, increasing weight by 5% when you max out your rep range.

This was one of my most productive ways I trained barbells and worked great when I couldn't plan a cycle off a max, or when I was looking to just build strength. The back off volume was mentally easier for me than sets across, and I'm a big fan of "over warm up" at a weight heavier than your work sets.

This works great for singles too - work up to a single, take 15-25% off and get some volume in. This can be done in a linear fashion (each week your heavy single and your back off sets get a little heavier until you can't maintain either increasing the single or completing the back offs) or in an "auto regulate" fashion where you work up to a "every day max" and then build volume afterwards. I would not recommend either of these unless you're fairly experienced with the lift.

Thanks! I’m going to try that. It looks great. If I have an access to lift barbell twice a week, then I just split those to a different workout. Right?

 

[John K]

Thanks! I’m going to try that. It looks great. If I have an access to lift barbell twice a week, then I just split those to a different workout. Right?

Yessir, you could. Let me know how it works out for you!

 

[masa]

Yessir, you could. Let me know how it works out for you!

Thanks! I let you know and report back. No barbell training before X-Mas though due to circumstances, but I try to start it ASAP.

 

[Sauli]

@masa you can start with the kbs. Reps can be high so modality does not have to be barbell. Doubles do the trick too. @MikeTheBear had some good ideas for you. Dl variations and half/quarter squats are used pretty widely in kb lifting... I would add overhead holds or walks.
This is pretty much what Ivan Denisov does.

 

[masa]

@masa you can start with the kbs. Reps can be high so modality does not have to be barbell. Doubles do the trick too. @MikeTheBear had some good ideas for you. Dl variations and half/quarter squats are used pretty wifely in kb lifting... I would add overhead holds or walks.
This is pretty much what Ivan Denisov does.

Thanks. Yes, I’m going to use KBs at starters, but add BB stuff if needed. Some SLDL with KB maybe too.

 

[masa]

@Sauli, I found this that supports your high rep recommendation with kettlebell.

ETK book, page 159.

"Kettlebells develop back extensor endurance. Professor Stuart McGill, PhD, the number-one spine biomechanist in the world, concluded that while lower-back strength surprisingly does not appear to reduce the odds of back problems, muscular endurance does (Luoto et. al, 1995). I dare you to find a better developer of the back extensors' endurance than the high-repetition kettlebell swing or snatch."

 

[Don Fairbanks]

@masa , You might find the book Gift of Injury, by Stu Mcgill and Brain Carroll interesting/helpful. You can also find several interviews by the authors about the process Mr. Carroll used to go from a broken sacrum and other back injuries to squatting a geared 1306.

 

[masa]

@masa , You might find the book Gift of Injury, by Stu Mcgill and Brain Carroll interesting/helpful. You can also find several interviews by the authors about the process Mr. Carroll used to go from a broken sacrum and other back injuries to squatting a geared 1306.

Thanks for chiming in. I will check it out. Some of the Stu's stuff is familiar from the past, but this one is new to me.

 

[william bad butt]

@masa , You might find the book Gift of Injury, by Stu Mcgill and Brain Carroll interesting/helpful. You can also find several interviews by the authors about the process Mr. Carroll used to go from a broken sacrum and other back injuries to squatting a geared 1306.

I will just 2nd this. Brian is my (online) coach. He has been working with me since Spring of 2019. And even prior to that, I was using his books on my own. I have a history of back issues... I highly recommend the books: Back Mechanic, 10/20/Life, and Gift of Injury. I've made a lot of progress in the last few years.

Regards,

Eric