Barbell Squat and Leg Press

[Michael D]

I started squatting in the middle of December with 95lb and got to 135lb by mid-January. It seems like the weight progression was a bit too fast, so I strained my adductors, and had to take time off squatting. I resumed squatting last week and worked up to 115lb with no pain. The weight doesn't feel heavy, but the most I can do maintaining good form is 3 sets of 5. First 2 sets feel rather easy, but last one is not. I squat just a bit below parallel, with high bar, and with my heels about shoulder width apart.

Now, I know the video would be helpful, but unfortunately, I don't have one, so please bear with my wordy explanation. I think I do use a proper form. Getting hurt does force you to pay extra attention to the form! I know I used to have a tendency to allow my knees to cave in, trying to wiggle myself out of the whole, and I was leaning forward a bit. But now I closely watch for those problems, and I don't allow myself to go heavier in weight if those things start coming back. For this very reason, I had to stick to 115lb for couple workouts.

Just for giggles, I tried the Leg Press machine. I did 3 reps with 208lb (90lb plates + the weight of the platform). It felt light, so I added 90lb, and did another 3 reps. Then added 50lb, and did another 3. The final set was 348lb. It felt heavy, but doable. On all those I was trying to lower the weight as far as possible. I kept the stance about the same as in the squat...

And finally, here is the question I have. Is it normal to have a leg press so much heavier than the squat? I feel like there is enough leg strength to be able to squat more, but for now I am somewhat struggling with 115lb. Am I doing something wrong?

And one more probably important detail One thing I noticed with my squats is, there is a sticking point coming out of the hole when the weight feels much heavier, about 1/3 of the way up. This is when my leaning forward, and knee caving was happening before. As soon as I pass this point, the weight just flies up...

Any pointers to what the problem might be, and how to resolve it? Thank you in advance!

 

[Matts]

Is it normal to have a leg press so much heavier than the squat?

Yes, it is normal- leg press is a fabulous machine for one's vanity! It supports the lower back entirely, gives you something to push against, and have nice, smooth rails and a great mechanical advantage for your quads. It really bears little to no relation to squatting, though. That being said, you might benefit from doing some for awhile and building some basic strength, and wait until you get good instruction on the squatting, and patience to do a few months of bodyweight squats most days.

 

[pet']

Hello,

And finally, here is the question I have. Is it normal to have a leg press so much heavier than the squat?

During a leg press, you do not have to focus on balance and core work. Then, you can put a total tension in quads only. You do not lose energy to carry the load. I guess it is an element

A good way to compare quad strength and hamstring strength is to compare the front squat and back squat. If front squat weight is inferior to 85% of back squat strength, there is an imbalance.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[JeffC]

Leg press after squats is a great combo. I did higher reps, 10-25 for 2-3 sets. Try different foot positions, tempos, and back angles. Try one leg at a time. Adds good variety and volume without over working the back, which gives first, for most people, before your lower body is thoroughly worked.

I do not have a lot of experience with a leg press, but when I had access to one I used it as Squat assistance, and made very good progress. Stronger legs, stronger squat.

 

[Michael D]

@Matts, could you please elaborate on this:

...and patience to do a few months of bodyweight squats most days.

@pet' makes sense, it is just surprising how much of a difference all this additional support makes.

@Geoff Chafe, what weight relative to your squat weight were you using for leg press with higher reps?

 

[Matts]

@Michael D - squatting is a great move, but it requires a lot of skill and good form to get the benefits from it and avoid injury. For many, it's also a chicken and egg thing, since you can't do it well without having the basic strength and coordination to do it, but you can't get that with weight to start out with. So for many people, it's much better to start out with bodyweight or some lighter goblet squats, work up to 1o0/day, and do that for a good while to develop skill and strength before you start trying to do 'em with weight. Squatting is full-body, so it has a large systemic load, it requires new skills for most people, such as: using hamstring to extend knee and hips at the same time, need strong lumbar region (spinal erectors/core), ability of all the groups to coordinate properly. and ability to contract hamstrings and quads at same time in parts of movement. I like to see everyone learn personally from someone who knows good form before putting weight on a bar, since the form is so important and consequences of bad form can be severe with weight added.

 

[Michael D]

Just did a quick video for a form check with a broomstick for back squat, and 16kg KB for goblet squat:

Any direction to improve will be much appreciated!

 

[JeffC]

@Michael D I cant remember taking a percentage based approach. 10% more than your Barbell Squat may be a good starting point. I do remember my legs, and glutes being sore though. At the time i was doing four days a week of Squat, Bench, Deadlift, and Overhead, with Getups and Swings 1-2 times a week.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@MichaelD
Depending of your training level, I would go for twice a week quad work and twice a week hamstring work. It will prevent imbalance on the long run.

Globally, when working on "isolation moves", working by agonist / antagonist pairs is a solid approach.

If front squat weight is inferior to 85% of back squat strength, there is an imbalance

Then if we rely on that figure, you can eventually load your FS a little more than your BS.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Shahaf Levin]

And one more probably important detail One thing I noticed with my squats is, there is a sticking point coming out of the hole when the weight feels much heavier, about 1/3 of the way up. This is when my leaning forward, and knee caving was happening before. As soon as I pass this point, the weight just flies up...

Everybody has some sort of sticking point, it is the point if least advantageous levers. And yes, this is when compensations are exaggerated, well, to compensate... Compensations (usually) does not start at the sticking point, they are just exaggerated there, so the best way to avoid them it to pay attention to details throughout the movement, from setup t o bottom and back up.

Just did a quick video for a form check with a broomstick for back squat, and 16kg KB for goblet squat:

One thing that seems to me is that you don't have/keep enough full body tension, and mostly lack of trunk tension. Seems like the broomstick is laid on your back instead of being held tight on the back. The visual signs for me was that your body is a little wobbly when you start your descent (back squat), and that you have some butt wink at the bottom (both versions, in the GS it is even seen from the front). While butt wink is associated with lack of hip mobility it is also a sign of lack of tension (it is hard to wink when you keep high tension).

Another thing is that it seems that when you start your ascent you have some minor movement of the knees forward. This might be lack of hip tension. Try rooting hard through your heels and spreading the floor apart, and actually start by pulling your ankles to vertical (as much as possible). This will load your hips more.

Hope it helps.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I am so far from the @Shahaf Levin 's movement skill, but an option you also have is to first work on bodyweight / broomstick. It will build the perfect movement pattern (both neural and physical). Indeed, it is possible that a load "hides" an imbalance. Once you get the perfect move, you can add weight safely

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Once you get the perfect move, you can add weight safely

+1 for that.
That is important. Loading improper movement pattern is not a good idea.

 

[Michael D]

@Shahaf Levin so if I understand correctly, the movement pattern will be exactly the same whether it is a squat with a broomstick, or a loaded squat?

 

[Shahaf Levin]

@Shahaf Levin so if I understand correctly, the movement pattern will be exactly the same whether it is a squat with a broomstick, or a loaded squat?

IMO, yes.

When you add load the center of gravity will shift a little and the groove will slightly change, but the pattern is still the same pattern. Front squats will have even more different groove, but it still is a squat pattern. For me prying goblet squats are my go-to drill for squat patterning. And rocking...

 

[krg]

The bar / broomstick looks a bit high on the shoulders for me, but I'm no expert on squat form. Do you use a pad when you squat with a regular bar?

Shahaf is right when he says your upper body looks loose. One cue that has helped me is to think about driving the elbows under the bar when you initiate the drive, it seems to tighten everything up.

A broomstick might be OK to practice but I think you might get more out of perfecting form with an empty bar - it will help your centre of gravity and with the weight light the risk of injury is minimal. Over time you can start to go heavier. I start any squat session I do with a few empty bar sets and they feel awkward as hell but by the time I have 40 kg on my back then they start to feel like a consistent movement pattern.

Great idea to take videos or have someone watch you, it is very difficult to know your squat form by feel.

Obviously an even better idea to get proper instruction from a good instructor - not always easy to find though.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

And finally, here is the question I have. Is it normal to have a leg press so much heavier than the squat? I feel like there is enough leg strength to be able to squat more, but for now I am somewhat struggling with 115lb. Am I doing something wrong?

FWIW for everyone I have talked about this, including myself, the legs have never been the limiting factor in a squat.
Glutes, back, abs, some kind of mobility/flexibility issue, yes, but raw leg strength? Never.

 

[Manuel Fortin]

About the difference between leg press and squat as mentioned in the first post, with the leg press, the weight moves on an inclined plane, which makes it easier (think pushing a heavy carriage along a ramp compared to lifting it). With a 45 degrees angle, that already removes about 30% of the weight, which takes your 348 pounds and makes it 240. Then, in a squat, you support the weight of your upper body addition to the bar, not in the leg press, which can remove another 100 pounds or so, depending on your build, so you are now down to 140 pounds. Another thing I found when I was doing leg press, is that it is easy to deceive ourselves into believing that we are really bending those knees, while in fact we are doing the equivalent of half squats. Even a few inches above parallel, or the equivalent, greatly increase your squat.

Finally, as others said, it is not only the legs that are working in the squat, but your whole body. If your upper body is not up to supporting the bar and the link between your torso and your legs is a bit soft, you will not have a big squat and your body will prevent you from going down to protect you. I experienced this recently when I was learning kettlebell front squats. For the first few times, the limiting factor was torso rigidity. Even squatting double 16s, which is about 70 pounds was difficult. I have not squatted in a while, but I can for sure back squat at least twice that for 10 reps without any warmup, and probably do a set of 5 with close to 3 times that weight. Since I had not perfected the motor pattern and was still working on having a rigid trunk with a load up front, my body stopped me from going deep. After a few weeks, I can now easily do sets of 5 with double 24s and am still improving very quickly.

 

[Michael D]

@krg I don't use a pad. I what you guys are saying about me not being tight. It might be that I just completely forgot about it with only a broomstick on my shoulders which barely weighs 1lb But I see what you are saying. I do find that keeping my whole body tight for any of the lifts (not just squat) is still not a second nature to me.

@Kettlebelephant judging by what you in the video, how is my mobility?

 

[Kettlebelephant]

@Michael D I'm not an instructor, but I don't see a mobility problem here. You have a slight butt wink at the bottom, but that's way below parallel. Stop an inch higher than you do in the vid and there shouldn't be any problems with that.

 

[Matts]

@Michael D I think you've got the basic move down ok, but have "looseness" just from not having the strength and coordination yet to tie the body together so it all feels like you're carved out of a huge piece of steel! The core and position of lower back don't look up to it, yet. That's the bad news...the good news is if you start at the beginning, and keep at it, you'll get there and can eventually work up to as heavy as you want. For now, I'd say to a lot of "core" exercises, like supermans, dead bugs, planks, etc. most every day. Do some medium work on the leg sled (even though you want to kiss that goodbye sometime soon), and do bodyweight squats (no broomstick, just stick your arms out front as you go down, like 50-100 a day, starting with lots of sets and reducing sets gradually to one long set. Are you familiar with shortstop position? you want to maintain lower back like that the whole time. Can you do good mornings? They'll get you some pythons... Start low, go slow, and you'll get there. Always seek the perfect form- that 's what progress is built on.
p.s.- doing the 50-100/day is not a one-time goal; it's when you can do them comfortably everyday with great form and energy to the end for a couple weeks.