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Old Forum Ss and long rests

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Bjoern

Level 1 Valued Member
Pnigro,

i appreciate your consistency in asking those questiones, I took great benefit from this discussion, thanks all.

Bjoern
 

Abdul-Rasheed

Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks to all Al Campa and all others who posted in this thread. It helped me immensely. Especially since S&S is part of life since last Jan, 2015 and I intend to keep it that way until the goals are met. I thought the book was clear on what it is supposed to instruct.  It is my opinion that a short book won't (and needn't) contain 'every' details. And that a teacher or an expert is needed to come in and explain it, and comment on it. Hence this forum and this thread. At least I view it that way.

As for me, I should admit, I was trying to rest shorter and shorter. But that is due to my impatience and eagerness to meet the goals and go up in weight sooner. Now that I know better, I am going to tone it down now and take my rest. And 'test' once a while to see where I am at. I want to stay injury-free.

Some of the terms used in these discussions are new to me. Can someone provide definitions for (or point me to the resources for ) the terms: alactic, aerobic and glycolytic?

Thanks!
 

jgruginski

Level 3 Valued Member
When I see the word test on here, I hear it as "see where you are", not "see if you're ready to move up".

In any case, for me I use a heart rate monitor. When my HR gets back down to 120, I go again. If I get too high in two consecutive sets of swings, I end the session. That allows me to adjust for any additional stress I may have going on or lack of recovery. However, it's not the only thing I'm doing right now, either.
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
Guys,

First of all, thanks a lot.

This certainly is a very useful discussion.

The reason I said the book was unclear is because of these comments:

"The long rest article qualifies S&S, in my opinion.  Rest longer… until it is time to “test”.  And then “test” very infrequently." - Al

"So, go ahead and leap off that bigger aerobic tank you created and test out…  now, is the ONLY time you actively shrink the rest periods: for the goal." - Al

"Walt, in S&S the compressed rest periods apply mostly to testing and the sessions leading up to it, so take your time." - Pavel

-

That was completely new information to me.

There's no mention of that sort of stuff anywhere in the book.

I was trying to reduce my rest periods on every practice, as hinted in the "The Goals and How to Reach Them" chapter.

Sorry, but I have to disagree that the book is clear on this.

To me it isn't.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Page 90 of the book, the last page - I don't see anything that conflicts with Pavel's blog or what Al is saying.  Page 90 is summary of the program - I won't repeat it here.

-S-
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
Steve,

Why do you take it personally?

It is not a contradiction, it is missing information.

Nowhere in the book it is said that compressing resting periods applies only for testing.

Sorry.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Pnigro, I don't take it personally. you misunderstand what you've read and I am trying to help you.  Compressing rest periods does not apply only to testing but rather trying to compress them does.  They will naturally get shorter as your strength and conditioning improve by following the program.  Al and I are telling you the same thing.

-S-
 

jca17

Level 5 Valued Member
I think Pavel has always made it clear that they are always adjusting programs, or at least how the program is explained, based on what they learn, nothing is static. As Al pointed out earlier, there is some fault in the readers and some in the writing. Point 6 of the program summary says that when you can do 100 swings in five minutes “strongly almost any day, move up in weight”. They’ve now clarified what is meant. There isn’t a conflict. If we took a poll of people who have tried to do S&S by trying work towards 100 swings in five minutes “almost any day”, we’d have a better idea of the disconnect between the writing and reading. I know I’m relieved to learn that a 16 minute workout “almost any day” isn’t actually the normal routine. It seemed almost impossible to both achieve that while obeying point 5 to “rest long enough between sets to assure no drop-off” Once you understand what is meant, there isn’t any confusion there, and I think the readers who are confused forget point 5 as soon as they read point 6. That’s why it’s great that the StrongFirst leadership is so active in teaching. Its a great organization, and I’m glad and relieved to have that clarified.
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
@Steve: No problem brother, I just feel that if the whole protocol was clear then this thread wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

@jca17:

I know I’m relieved to learn that a 16 minute workout “almost any day” isn’t actually the normal routine. It seemed almost impossible to both achieve that while obeying point 5 to “rest long enough between sets to assure no drop-off”

EXACTLY!!!!!

So what Pavel meant was to reach a point where one is "able to achieve the goal on any given day".

That means that unless we're trying a goal attempt, our workouts are always going to last more than 16 minutes (sometimes a lot more).

Am I right?
 

piratebum

Level 6 Valued Member
Pnigro, you are beating the proverbI'll dead horse.

Al and others thank you so much.

al, the average American reads at a fifth grade level and it's getting worse. No matter how much you dumb it down many will not understand.

mores the pity.

 

 
 

Al Ciampa

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Let me preface this post by saying that this is a most valuable and enjoyable thread.  I do enjoy the opportunity for these types of discussions, so, thank you.

Next, "S&S", the book, is not scripture; "S&S", the training program that is described in the book has obviously been tried and tested farily thoroughly now since it's release.  This forum is a great place to discuss our collective observations as we move forward, both assisting each other in our quests, and creating fodder for updates and new programs.  If you've only shortly been following SF/Pavel/RKC... the training prinicples that bind us, you may not know that this community constantly evolves via input and feedback such as this.

Additionally, and I think that I'm familiar enough with the organization to say this, we have an attitude of practice & mastery; patience & humility.  We do not try to convince anyone, but will gladly accept and guide if you are willing to learn.

So, Pnigro, let me quote your orginal post, which narrates the theme of your understanding:
The book is unclear.

If it wasn’t for this forum I would still be trying to gradually reduce the rest periods, compromising my explosiveness in the last 4 sets or so.

While it is true that the book doesn’t advocate actively compressing rests, it does say that one should only move up in weight when time standards are met and we are able to do them strongly. This is ultimately interpreted  as being able to meet the standards during regular training days, as there  is no  mention whatsoever of saving it for a test day.

For me personally 7 minutes feel very natural for the swings. It’s been that way for months. I can only do 5 minutes if I clock myself and actively compress the rest periods.

Bottom line: I think the book should be revised to clarify this concept, otherwise it is inevitable that most people will start compressing the rest periods at some point.
To put it simply, these are the ideas of a grasshopper, not a master; and this is a-ok... we are all at the point in the road where we are.  If you took a bell, be it the 40kg, the 24kg, or 8kg, in your practice and completed the training, meaning that you practiced swings and get ups until you reached the goal described in the book, we would not be having this discussion.  You would have learned through your mastery.

But since you are the impatient type of grasshopper (and I respect this because we DID have this valuable discussion), who needs to know now, the bottom line is, you misread the book.  Some of the propositions above that bottom line have certainly been added through the additional and subsequent knowledge gained since the book was released, but this does not change your error in understanding.  Back to your post:
The book is unclear.

If it wasn’t for this forum I would still be trying to gradually reduce the rest periods, compromising my explosiveness in the last 4 sets or so.
The book is very clear in directing not to lose explosiveness on ANY swing.  This is achieved by resting longer.  This is stated throughout the book, and is highlighted in red-circled captions many times: "you are ready for the next set when you can talk again", e.g.
While it is true that the book doesn’t advocate actively compressing rests, it does say that one should only move up in weight when time standards are met and we are able to do them strongly. This is ultimately interpreted  as being able to meet the standards during regular training days, as there  is no  mention whatsoever of saving it for a test day.
Not only did you just contradict your first point, but this is YOUR interpretation, and the source of your error.  Being able to "do this strongly any day" is not the same as doing it every single training day.  For example, I can nose breathe through the simple goal ANY day; but everyday?  Probably; this is what aerobic conditioning affords.  However, I can take the 48 and also complete the time standards, ANY day, but everyday, absolutely not; this is what deep glycolytic work causes.
For me personally 7 minutes feel very natural for the swings. It’s been that way for months. I can only do 5 minutes if I clock myself and actively compress the rest periods.
Patience.  What bell size do you use for your practice?  Which one did you start with?  Which bells, if any, did you progress with between your starting bell and your current bell?
Bottom line: I think the book should be revised to clarify this concept, otherwise it is inevitable that most people will start compressing the rest periods at some point.
This forum is where we are clarifying what is clearly written in the book.  What good would it do to change the text in the book, a one-way communcation device, if one is not understanding it from an interactive source, such as this forum?

I can, admittedly, see how it seems like there is a disconnect between #5 and #6 on page 90; seek mastery of the program, and that illusionary disconnect fades away.  Trust the path, and go practice.
 

Al Ciampa

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
David,

I'd rather not get frustrated by thoughts like those.  For whatever genetic reason, I highly value communication, and continually seek to complete a message in a comprehensible manner.  At the same time, I agree with your idea and tend to get frustrated anyway.  Oh well....
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
Thank you Al.

Of course, I misinterpreted the goal.

The source of this confusion is probably not from the phrase "almost any day", but from the "gradually reduce the rest periods" and "eventually you will reach a point where your work to rest ratio is 1:1" from the first page of the chapter of goals, which led me to believe that the training itself was supposed to reach that point.

Your recent posts and explanations of tests and goal attempts changed everything for me. I've been training with that in mind for the past week and now I don't care at all if my swings take 10 minutes, because I know that I can attempt the goal any day and then go back to easy training.

So I thank you for that. I always read your posts. For example, I removed the windshield wiper move from my getups and they feel MUCH better that way. My knee was very uncomfortable before.

I think some people got a little defensive by my criticizing of the book. I do it with my best of intentions. Almost every book can be improved.

Some of my critique was unfounded of course, like you pointed out. Pavel always says we should take our time.

Thanks everyone.

 
 

postnspread

Level 2 Valued Member
IMO Pavel's books should be read like mathematics texts: pay attention also to what they don't say! "Let ABC be a triangle". Does the text say it's equilateral?!! I've always found his writing quite clear and unstinting in details. But there's a point at which one needs also to understand the spirit in which a concept or book has been presented rather than focussing too closely on its letter. Maybe it's because I'm quite familiar with his writings that the original post of this thread seemed a little strange. When I read the book, I'd immediately understood him to mean that the rest intervals should be allowed to decrease as they might without trying to force the pace.
 

Pavel

Founder and Chairman
Certified Instructor
Pnigro, thanks for starting a great thread!  Gents, thanks for your insighful responses!

S&S leaves room for interpretation on some elements of the plan.

Al has correctly pointed out: "Being able to “do this strongly any day” is not the same as doing it every single training day.”  In the beginning, when the bell is light, you are very likely able to do it every day.  But as your poundages climb, an organic form of cycling tends to develop to comply with the non-negotiable rules: stay fresh every day and explosive every set.   You end up taking more rest on days when you need to or switch to “shadow swings”.  (Some people, like a friend I saw today, can repeat it daily.  He can get his 100 reps with the Beast in 4:30 any day of the week and repeat it tomorrow.  Keep in mind, he deadlifts 490 raw and rolls BJJ several days a week.)

This cycling can be done in a more formal way, as described in my blog "From Simple to Sinister”.

The question is, what are your swing numbers?
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
"The question is, what are your swing numbers?"

I've been doing swings with the 24 kg since November. First few months double handed and then one handed. I have no problem continuing with this bell for a while until I own it.

For the get ups, I have progressed from the 8kg to 16kg to 24kg, and now I'm incorporating a couple of reps with the 32kg.
 

Pavel

Founder and Chairman
Certified Instructor
Pnigro, can do it in 5min—not on back to back days but any day you choose to?
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
I can't.

I've been mostly doing S&S only 3 times per week though, so I have somewhere around 60 sessions under my belt with the 24kg.

I will keep working with it and maybe add a couple of sets here and there with the 32kg if I'm feeling good.

I just recently increased my training frequency to 4-5 times a week. Hopefully that will help.

Thanks Pavel.
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
regarding s&s and long rests... great insights on instruction (the book), interpretation (the reader) and communication (the forum).

when i started s&s on 01.01.14 i began with the 40k and 48k (i considered me "advanced") and the swing sessions took me between 6 to 10 minutes (trying to compress the rest periods).

after rereading the book i realized, that i missed the important aspect of breath control. A point not discussed often in this forum and therefore i think is overlooked mostly.

in the end of may 2014 i focused on complete inhalation through the nose into my belly and complete exhalation through the nose. My swings with the 40k and 48k took 20min to  26min in the beginning, and the rest periods felt horrible, because of the strong urge to suck oxygen when i only exhalated 50% of my air.

i stayed with this practice with the 40k and managed in december to take 5-13 breaths between sets and completing the swinging in 5-10 min.

By end of december i decided to really own the simple goals and used the 32k for my sessions where i prepared myself to be be able to hit the simple goals almost each and every day. with 5 to 7 breaths between sets. simple, but not easy.

from mid february i was on "from simple to sinister" (a real eye opener to me) for eight weeks where i really did not care how long my rest takes for the first time, and kept on trying controling my breath. this took me to hit the 5 min. mark twice on my  two "test days" with 5-8 breaths (with40k). simple but very hard (the testing).

so, i did something wrong: starting to heavy, compressing the rest periods because too keen to be sinister (misinterpretation of the book)

also i did something right (or i only think so): i was consistent with the menu of swings and get ups, i incorporated focusing on breath control, concentration on proper execution (according to my understanding).

in (my) conclusion i would say let your breathing determine how much rest you need, but here try not to "compress" your breath rate to a 1:2 breath:swing ratio. practice and let it happen, be patient and enjoy great results along the way which will be very long, the longer you go it.

have a nice sunday.

 

 
 
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