Barbell Stiff legged deadlift form critique

[watchnerd]

on the subject of good mornings I also took a video of me doing these:



Would these be a better safer alternative than stiff legged deads to build erectors and the posterior chain in general?

Your lower back looked not rounded, which is good, but you want to squeeze your shoulder blades a little more, really lock the upper back in. The upper back isn't just passively held in position...you're isometrically retracting the shoulder blades while holding the barbell, which also facilitates a stronger brace in the lower back.

But I couldn't see your butt very well because it went off camera. I can't quite tell with the loose sweats, but you really want to initiate concentric with a strong squeeze of the glutes and clenching at lockout. I should be able to see your butt cheeks squeezing at the top if you had on tighter pants.

The hip lockout should be fairly forceful, almost like a kettlebell swing.

The female lifter in this video has really strong and fast lockout:

 

[watchnerd]

If you're standing or sitting, can you tip your pelvis forward without changing anything else?

I thought I was pretty decent at pelvic tilt control (I still might be for my peer group), until I tried...

--Full pancake stretch
--Pilates roll up

...and I'm sooooo bad at both of them.

I have these as my mobility goals for EOY, but it's probably more likely to be end of next year at my current slow rate of progress.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...I'd rather not have any of the back rounded for any kind of deadlift, though there are some legitimate reasons to and it can be done safely under some circumstances,

Max Conventional Deadlift

If the objective is to pull a 1 Repetition Deadlift Max, Conventional Deadlifters are going to have some upper back rounding. Upper back rounding is something that occurs naturally.

As Contreras states, it enables the bar to remain closer to the Body's Center of Gravity.

The farther away the bar is from the Body's Center of Gravity the more the load is magnified.

All of the exercises in the Thoracic Back article round the upper back, emulating a Round Back Deadlift.

So for most Powerlifter with Conventional Deadlift are going to pull more weight with some upper back rounding.

As Contreras noted in his article...

"With what's deemed "perfect form," characterized by maintenance of the natural lordotic and thoracic spinal curvature with the extension revolving around the hip joints, I'm able to pull 425 pounds. If I allow my back to round considerably, I can pull 565 pounds."

"Most people are stronger when rounding their back during deadlifts. This is natural and shouldn't be thought of as "dysfunction."

On a personal note, my upper back rounding has occured for years in Powerlfiting Competition Deadlifts. I have never had a issue with back problems from upper back rounding.

Upper Back Rounding falls more into the Powerlifting Deadlift Method rather than the Olympic Deadlift Method. They are two different movements.

With that said, how the method method is breaking the weight off the floor in a Conventional Poweriifting Deadlift (Research McLaughlin) is different than in Olympic Deadlift Method.

It comes down to using the right tool for the right job.

 

[Anna C]

Max Conventional Deadlift

If the objective is to pull a 1 Repetition Deadlift Max, Conventional Deadlifters are going to have some upper back rounding. Upper back rounding is something that occurs naturally.

As Contreras states, it enables the bar to remain closer to the Body's Center of Gravity.

The farther away the bar is from the Body's Center of Gravity the more the load is magnified.

All of the exercises in the Thoracic Back article round the upper back, emulating a Round Back Deadlift.

So for most Powerlifter with Conventional Deadlift are going to pull more weight with some upper back rounding.

As Contreras noted in his article...

"With what's deemed "perfect form," characterized by maintenance of the natural lordotic and thoracic spinal curvature with the extension revolving around the hip joints, I'm able to pull 425 pounds. If I allow my back to round considerably, I can pull 565 pounds."

"Most people are stronger when rounding their back during deadlifts. This is natural and shouldn't be thought of as "dysfunction."

On a personal note, my upper back rounding has occured for years in Powerlfiting Competition Deadlifts. I have never had a issue with back problems from upper back rounding.

Upper Back Rounding falls more into the Powerlifting Deadlift Method rather than the Olympic Deadlift Method. They are two different movements.

With that said, how the method method is breaking the weight off the floor in a Conventional Poweriifting Deadlift (Research McLaughlin) is different than in Olympic Deadlift Method.

It comes down to using the right tool for the right job.

Right... but upper back rounding, not lower back rounding, or whole back rounding.

As I mentioned, it's actually somewhat tricky to round the upper back while keeping the lower back extended. Though it certainly can be learned.

I'd still say the first order of business for a general strength trainee is to learn to keep the back tight/extended (maintain natural curves as they are when standing with upright posture) while lifting a weight. Get the whole back strong. Then maybe play with variations.

 

[Whosonfirst]

on the subject of good mornings I also took a video of me doing these:



Would these be a better safer alternative than stiff legged deads to build erectors and the posterior chain in general?

Hello Arthur , everyone's physical attributes are different. For example I was 6'4" until a decade ago, and for me, good mornings hurt me more often than stiff-leg deadlifts. And I've done a lot of them. Not sure how tall you are. If you look at the still of your good morning, and draw a down arrow from where the bar sits on your neck/shoulders, and take a pic of leaning forward position on a SLDL and draw an arrow downward, the distance to your back or hip pivot point will be longer with the GM, meaning the moment of inertia is greater. For me that translated into more injuries. So I stopped all GM's entirely. I talked to my doc and PT's about this and he said that he didn't see a lot of lower back injuries with the short-barrel chested guys, but tall guys were a regular thing. Having said that, GM's may still be right for you. YMMV

 

[watchnerd]

As I mentioned, it's actually somewhat tricky to round the upper back while keeping the lower back extended. Though it certainly can be learned.

I think Pendlay rows are an easier lift to learn thoracic extension (with scapular protraction/retraction) while maintaining a locked lower back, anyway.

 

[watchnerd]

I'd still say the first order of business for a general strength trainee is to learn to keep the back tight/extended (maintain natural curves as they are when standing with upright posture) while lifting a weight. Get the whole back strong. Then maybe play with variations.

+1

Beginners don't need to work on specialized techniques used by elite deadlifters and strongmen designed to get that last bit of extra performance by shortening the moment arm via manipulating back curvature.

Beginners have lots and lots of training headroom just mastering the fundamentals, which can take many years of practice before you plateau in gains.

 

[watchnerd]

Hello Arthur , everyone's physical attributes are different. For example I was 6'4" until a decade ago, and for me, good mornings hurt me more often than stiff-leg deadlifts. And I've done a lot of them. Not sure how tall you are. If you look at the still of your good morning, and draw a down arrow from where the bar sits on your neck/shoulders, and take a pic of leaning forward position on a SLDL and draw an arrow downward, the distance to your back or hip pivot point will be longer with the GM, meaning the moment of inertia is greater. For me that translated into more injuries. So I stopped all GM's entirely. I talked to my doc and PT's about this and he said that he didn't see a lot of lower back injuries with the short-barrel chested guys, but tall guys were a regular thing. Having said that, GM's may still be right for you. YMMV

This isn't really a function of only height, per se, but torso length.

A long legged, short torso lifter that is 6'2 may have a shorter moment arm than a short leg, long torso lifter that is 5'9". Yes, they are correlated, but it's not quite as simple as "taller = harder."

Also, you can compensate for a longer moment arm by simply reducing the weight lifted.

Conversely, short torso people can also reach a point where the weight is too heavy, too. Shorter moment arm isn't some magical power that makes the move automatically safe at all loads...like any lift.

Lastly, the 'torso moment arm issue' isn't particularly unique to the good morning: it's true of all hip hinges to a greater or lesser degree.

During the work day, I often do good mornings with nothing heavier than a PVC pipe just to move and wake up my glutes and lower back after sitting too long. I usually combine with a preacher stretch to get some thoracic extension.

A 6'4" person should be able to do a PVC pipe good morning (i.e. basically bodyweight), and progress beyond that over time.

 

[Whosonfirst]

This isn't really a function of only height, per se, but torso length.

A long legged, short torso lifter that is 6'2 may have a shorter moment arm than a short leg, long torso lifter that is 5'9". Yes, they are correlated, but it's not quite as simple as "taller = harder."

Also, you can compensate for a longer moment arm by simply reducing the weight lifted.

Conversely, short torso people can also reach a point where the weight is too heavy, too. Shorter moment arm isn't some magical power that makes the move automatically safe at all loads...like any lift.

Lastly, the 'torso moment arm issue' isn't particularly unique to the good morning: it's true of all hip hinges to a greater or lesser degree.

During the work day, I often do good mornings with nothing heavier than a PVC pipe just to move and wake up my glutes and lower back after sitting too long. I usually combine with a preacher stretch to get some thoracic extension.

A 6'4" person should be able to do a PVC pipe good morning (i.e. basically bodyweight), and progress beyond that over time.

@watchnerd - I didn't say it was as simple as taller = harder. If you read my comment closely, I related it to his torso and his length to his pivot point being longer for GM's, etc. Please don't mis-quote my comments. Maybe I implied that in my own case, being pretty tall, it was problematic for me. My doctor and PT said my phys. dims. suffered a higher rate of back injury than short stubby guys. I don't have any white papers to prove that fact. Shorter moment arms are always advantageous for certain strength movements like bench press. Not so much for throwing a fast ball.

 

[watchnerd]

@watchnerd - I didn't say it was as simple as taller = harder. If you read my comment closely, I related it to his torso and his length to his pivot point being longer for GM's, etc. Please don't mis-quote my comments. Maybe I implied that in my own case, being pretty tall, it was problematic for me. My doctor and PT said my phys. dims. suffered a higher rate of back injury than short stubby guys. I don't have any white papers to prove that fact. Shorter moment arms are always advantageous for certain strength movements like bench press. Not so much for throwing a fast ball.

I'm simply pointing out that, with even with a longer torso, there is still a load range that is safe.

It's just physics.

Categorizing the exercise as inherently dangerous for longer torso people without taking into account loading factors is leaving out an important variable.

 

[Whosonfirst]

I'm simply pointing out that, with even with a longer torso, there is still a load range that is safe.

It's just physics.

Categorizing the exercise as inherently dangerous for taller people without taking into account loading variables is leaving out an important factor.

Here's my text: for me, good mornings hurt me more often than stiff-leg deadlifts. And I've done a lot of them.
And then, I said: Having said that, GM's may still be right for you. YMMV
Inherently dangerous, never appeared in my comment.

 

[watchnerd]

Here's my text: for me, good mornings hurt me more often than stiff-leg deadlifts. And I've done a lot of them.
And then, I said: Having said that, GM's may still be right for you. YMMV
Inherently dangerous, never appeared in my comment.

Understood.

The dangerous exercise comment didn't come from you, but the words "severely dangerous" have appeared up thread.

It's important to reiterate that almost any exercise can be potentially harmful with too much weight and/or bad form.

But that same exercise can be healthful when done correctly.

 

[Whosonfirst]

@watchnerd - ^^^^Agreed, most drs believe DL's are dangerous.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...upper back rounding, not lower back rounding, or whole back rounding.

Definitely

Yes, Upper Back Rounding is fine.

Lower back Rounding needs to be avoided.

...it's actually somewhat tricky to round the upper back while keeping the lower back extended. Though it certainly can be learned.

The Nature of Upper Back Rounding

I am not advocating that Upper Back Rounding be taught.

As long as Upper Back Rounding is something natural for the lifter and there no Lower Back Rounding, there's no issue.

As Per Contreras...

"Most people are stronger when rounding their back during deadlifts. This is natural and shouldn't be thought of as "dysfunction."

Many Conventional Deadlifters, as well as Stiff Leg (Slight Knee Bend) Deadlifters just naturally perform Upper Back Rounding without realizing they are doing it. That in part because of how they are built and where their strength lies.

To reiterate Contreras, "This is natural and shouldn't be thought of as "dysfunction."

So, if a lifter naturally performs a Deadlift Movement with Upper Back Rounding, that's fine.

If Upper Back Rounding does not feel natural, don't encourage them to "Learn" how to do it.

...the first order of business for a general strength trainee is to learn to keep the back tight/extended (maintain natural curves as they are when standing with upright posture) while lifting a weight. Get the whole back strong. Then maybe play with variations.

Exceptions To The Rule

As with everything in life, there are exceptions to the rule.

Again, if a lifter naturally performs some type of Deadlift by Rounding the Upper Back and not the Lower Back, they are fine.

Why force someone to do something that doesn't feel right and they are not comfortable with?

Get the whole back strong. Then maybe play with variations.

Getting The Whole Back Strong

Does performing the Upper Back Rounding Deadlifts mean you are not getting the whole back strong?