Other/Mixed Strength Aerobics vs "Iron wolf burpees" vs "standard aerobic training"

[bluejeff]

The basic questions:

As far as aerobic conditioning is concerned:
- How does strength aerobics compare to traditional LISS/MAF/ "standard" aerobics (meaning jogging and stuff)?
-Other than the pace, how would Iron Wolf style burpees* compare to the other two?

*for those unfamiliar, "IW style burpees" could be described as starting from standing, get down to plank position, do anywhere from 1-10 pushups (depending on fitness level, goals, etc), stand back up, repeat. In other words, skipping the "explosive" part of other burpees. This style can also include lunges, jumping jacks, jogging in place, etc between the pushup portion.

The more detailed question:
-My understanding is that in strength aerobics (SA), one only does one or two reps, "rests" between reps of the chosen exercises (since you could do SA with different training tools) by doing fast and loose drills until the breath "catches up." In the "Iron Wolf style burpee" (IW burpee), the pace is likely quicker, maybe more akin to going for a jog and doing sets of pushups and whatnot every so many paces or something.

-I need more aerobic conditioning, but am a little strapped for time and would like some sort of "one stop shop" for strength, endurance and aerobic conditioning. Would either of these fit that?

Thoughts and opinions? Thanks!

 

[Anna C]

I need more aerobic conditioning

I'd explore this a bit more. What exactly do you mean by it, and how will you know if you have built "more aerobic conditioning"?

 

[wespom9]

One stop shops are tough to get.

Strength Aerobics, as per the article (I'm not sure if there has been a change?), uses a 10 RM bell for 1 rep at a time. It's not really cardiovascular oriented at all; it is not dynamic or continuous in nature, focuses on "grinds" instead, and won't have the same physiological effect. I'm not bashing it; I just mean if you are looking for cardiovascular specific adaptations in terms of preload, dynamic nature, etc there are better choices
I kind of think of this as a continuum in regards to central adaptations if this helps

afterload dominant ------------- pre load dominant
grinds ----- ballistics/power ----- loose, dynamic activity

 

[bluejeff]

I'd explore this a bit more. What exactly do you mean by it, and how will you know if you have built "more aerobic conditioning"?

By this I mean that I haven't run, jogged, ridden a bike, etc in like at least 5 years. I used to enjoy all those things but I just have the time these days, or I haven't found the motivation to change things to fit them in. They just don't capture my interest like they used to.

One stop shops are tough to get.

Strength Aerobics, as per the article (I'm not sure if there has been a change?), uses a 10 RM bell for 1 rep at a time. It's not really cardiovascular oriented at all; it is not dynamic or continuous in nature, focuses on "grinds" instead, and won't have the same physiological effect. I'm not bashing it; I just mean if you are looking for cardiovascular specific adaptations in terms of preload, dynamic nature, etc there are better choices
I kind of think of this as a continuum in regards to central adaptations if this helps

afterload dominant ------------- pre load dominant
grinds ----- ballistics/power ----- loose, dynamic activity

Maybe our definitions are a little different, but I would hardly classify one rep with a 10RM bell as a "grind." Anything "grindy" to me is at least as low as a 5RM. When I think "grind," I think "slow and kind of hard." One rep of a 10RM would be neither of those for me. I'm also not sure about it being "discontinous." I guess it's not like you're "constantly moving," but your heart rate will stay elevated for sure.

I admit I had to look up "preload vs afterload," but I am having a hard time understanding how training affects this. Do you have some links to share?

 

[Dayz]

You're confusing grind with a grinding rep. Grinds are just the slow lifts, as opposed to ballistics.

To answer your question, strength aerobics will not replace LISS running or cycling at all.

 

[Anna C]

By this I mean that I haven't run, jogged, ridden a bike, etc in like at least 5 years. I used to enjoy all those things but I just have the time these days, or I haven't found the motivation to change things to fit them in. They just don't capture my interest like they used to.

Ok. But what is the reason that you want "more aerobic conditioning"? Do you expect that you'll look different or feel different after you have it? Be able to do different things after you have it? Or have your heart and other things just be silently better off if you have it?

 

[Steve Freides]

To answer your question, strength aerobics will not replace LISS running or cycling at all.

@Brett Jones

Personally, I think @Anna C has asked the right question here. I don't do much the qualifies as traditional aerobics, but I have "enough cardio" by any measure that matters to me. My main "cardio" is swinging a kettlebell, typically sets on-the-minute.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello @bluejeff

As I view it:
SA permits you to perform multiple very low reps sets, with aerobic rest in-between. The move per se is not aerobic. Having ample rest between sets allows you to build a lot of volume. However, in terms of cardiac output, this is not "pure aerobic conditioning" because this is not a continuous effort. Basically, if you consider the entire duration of a workout, most of your time will be dedicated to rest.

However, IW burpees can be performed aerobically because you can move the whole time: you perform a burpee (no matter the variation you choose), then you jog in place a few seconds, and do another rep, etc... Here, the cardiac output is different because there is no "spikes" contrary to the SA protocol. Cardiac output is constant.

An alternative could be this article:

StrongFirst Roadwork | StrongFirst

Run. Shadow box. At intervals you set for yourself. Here and there do pistols and push-ups. No rest and just a couple reps. This is StrongFirst roadwork.

www.strongfirst.com

So you want to blend both IW and SA, it could be something like this:
- n repetitions of IW burpees (or x amount of time),
- p repetitions of your grind of choice,
- n repetitions of IW burpees (or x amount of time),
- p repetitions,
etc...

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[bluejeff]

Ok. But what is the reason that you want "more aerobic conditioning"? Do you expect that you'll look different or feel different after you have it? Be able to do different things after you have it? Or have your heart and other things just be silently better off if you have it?

General health, I would say. I don’t feel unhealthy I guess, but I feel like my heart rate doesn’t get much challenge in the training I do. It’s things like Maffetone’s aerobic deficiency syndrome; I get noticeably more out of breath climbing a few flights of stairs than I’d like, I have hay fever symptoms even when there’s nothing to spark them… I’ve been around the block with diet and gut health etc, the only thing that’s made a noticeable difference in the last year was Patrick Mckeown’s stuff: Buteyko and whatnot.

Also, for the oxygen advantage folks out there, my control pause is pitiful. I know there are exercises specifically for that, but I’ve read that aerobic work is another way to improve it.

Lastly, a little bit of vanity. I haven’t seen my abs since I was like 19 (nearly 39 now), and that was something else that Maffetone talked about; aerobic work aiding in fat burning. I realize diet is a factor for that as well.

 

[Anna C]

General health, I would say. I don’t feel unhealthy I guess, but I feel like my heart rate doesn’t get much challenge in the training I do. It’s things like Maffetone’s aerobic deficiency syndrome; I get noticeably more out of breath climbing a few flights of stairs than I’d like, I have hay fever symptoms even when there’s nothing to spark them… I’ve been around the block with diet and gut health etc, the only thing that’s made a noticeable difference in the last year was Patrick Mckeown’s stuff: Buteyko and whatnot.

Also, for the oxygen advantage folks out there, my control pause is pitiful. I know there are exercises specifically for that, but I’ve read that aerobic work is another way to improve it.

Lastly, a little bit of vanity. I haven’t seen my abs since I was like 19 (nearly 39 now), and that was something else that Maffetone talked about; aerobic work aiding in fat burning. I realize diet is a factor for that as well.

OK, great description...

Lots of ways to go about it. My thought is "don't let perfect be the enemy of good." Just do something that you will do, to accumulate some time with an elevated heart rate with some activity. For "substantial health benefits", go for the minimums in the "Physical Activity Guidelines" -- work your way up to 300 min/week of low to moderate intensity or 150 min of higher intensity per week, or some combination.




I really think some LISS is what is most needed for your objectives. Run/jog, ruck, cycle, row... But if you want to use the kettlebell, you have to do something you can really put some time in. A+A and Strength Aerobics/Iron Cardio are both ways to do that, but most people will run into limitations like wear-and-tear on the hands, or muscular endurance limitations, before they can really accumulate the needed time to have the health and overall fitness impacts that you are seeking. There are some exceptions in people who have been doing a higher volume of work for a long time.... just like physical laborers.

And if the breathing exercises make a difference, make that a priority as well.

 

[pet']

Hello @bluejeff

First off, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with some vanity training (at least to a degree) !

However, there is a lot to do with diet. For example, I play boxing pretty intensely 2x a week in the gym, plus at home. At the gym, there is always a moment when I go "all out". I also do "StrongFirst roadwork" on a daily basis for 30 minutes, using nasal breathing (mostly, I use OAOL PU, OAP, pistols, burpees, pull ups, and heavy band OVH press). When I get back from running I do 5-6 minutes of almost non stop core exercises. Well, you can barely see my "abs"... As far as diet goes, this is extremely "Mediterranean" (veggies, lean meats, very low fat, no refined sugar, etc...)

Beyond aesthetic, core is something that has to be balanced (flexion / extension / rotation / anti rotation / bending). Otherwise, you may get back / spine issues.

Other/Mixed - How to Get Pumped Abs

I didn't intend to get pumped abs today, but it happened anyway during today's hypertrophy stuff: [ignore all the stuff that didn't contribute to abs, leaving] Barbell Good Mornings (3x10) Barbell Overhead Squats (3x15) Pallof Press (3x15) KB 'Basketball Drills' (2 x 10) Weighted V Up (3 sets...

www.strongfirst.com

Breathing is paramount. Diaphragmatic breathing during exercise and transverse work will help you to make your stomach more "flat". If breathing has a positive impact on your health, then no matter what, keep going.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Sean M]

Consider the Kettlebell Mile if you’re not into running.

The Kettlebell Mile | StrongFirst

The Kettlebell Mile is the product of a two-decade long search for a way to simultaneously train strength and aerobic capacity. It seems so obvious now, but the best ideas are seen as such only in retrospect. I had much learning and tinkering to do first but finally, the science and my...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Deleted 20758]

By this I mean that I haven't run, jogged, ridden a bike, etc in like at least 5 years. I used to enjoy all those things but I just have the time these days, or I haven't found the motivation to change things to fit them in. They just don't capture my interest like they used to.

Maybe our definitions are a little different, but I would hardly classify one rep with a 10RM bell as a "grind." Anything "grindy" to me is at least as low as a 5RM. When I think "grind," I think "slow and kind of hard." One rep of a 10RM would be neither of those for me. I'm also not sure about it being "discontinous." I guess it's not like you're "constantly moving," but your heart rate will stay elevated for sure.

I admit I had to look up "preload vs afterload," but I am having a hard time understanding how training affects this. Do you have some links to share?

One rep with a 10RM. Why would your heartrate stay elevated?

 

[bluejeff]

One rep with a 10RM. Why would your heartrate stay elevated?

Just by “constantly” moving. When I’ve played around with this style of training in the past, though, I did prefer to work a little heavier, which did raise the heart rate noticeably more. Even doing burpees as I described (which sounds easy at first; do a push-up, stand up, repeat…) will get my heart rate up. It’s really interesting how just getting down and up off the floor will do that.

@Anna C i also am interested because I would like to increase work capacity to an extent. “Aerobic base” and all that…

 

[pet']

Hello @bluejeff

Below is a selection of articles that may interest you. They are about burpees, breathing and athleticism

Swings and burpees:

Burpees and Kettlebell Swings for Improved Athleticism | StrongFirst

We are StrongFirst. Therefore, we know kettlebells. We know the many benefits they can have. The swing is why you get into kettlebells right? Well, it was for me. What I realized after practicing with kettlebells for many years was that I got better athletically. Simply put, the kettlebell swing...

www.strongfirst.com

Here, there is no burpee, but sprints and push ups:

Strong Endurance in Schools to Strengthen the Next Generation | StrongFirst

Incorporating Strong Endurance, the Fighter Pullup Program and Grease the Groove have been an enormous success at Prescott. We have seen noticeable physical improvements throughout the year and a half we’ve been implementing these programs.

www.strongfirst.com

This one is about burpees. That's some sort of A+A

How to Train Against a Virus | StrongFirst

A simple recipe to become more resilient: do moderate dynamic aerobic exercise and avoid overtraining with any type of exercise. And lift.

www.strongfirst.com

This one is about breathing:

Minimalist Breathing to Maximize Protection | StrongFirst

Techniques to strengthen your lungs and improve your defenses against the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.strongfirst.com

Hope that helps,

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kev]

The basic questions:

As far as aerobic conditioning is concerned:
- How does strength aerobics compare to traditional LISS/MAF/ "standard" aerobics (meaning jogging and stuff)?
-Other than the pace, how would Iron Wolf style burpees* compare to the other two?

*for those unfamiliar, "IW style burpees" could be described as starting from standing, get down to plank position, do anywhere from 1-10 pushups (depending on fitness level, goals, etc), stand back up, repeat. In other words, skipping the "explosive" part of other burpees. This style can also include lunges, jumping jacks, jogging in place, etc between the pushup portion.

The more detailed question:
-My understanding is that in strength aerobics (SA), one only does one or two reps, "rests" between reps of the chosen exercises (since you could do SA with different training tools) by doing fast and loose drills until the breath "catches up." In the "Iron Wolf style burpee" (IW burpee), the pace is likely quicker, maybe more akin to going for a jog and doing sets of pushups and whatnot every so many paces or something.

-I need more aerobic conditioning, but am a little strapped for time and would like some sort of "one stop shop" for strength, endurance and aerobic conditioning. Would either of these fit that?

Thoughts and opinions? Thanks!

I’m biased towards the wolf I’m afraid. He had me doing 100 5 pumps at will without stopping and on one occasion 1000 push-ups in a single workout of push-ups and burpees at 42 years old. I’ve not done his stuff in a while but I personally think it’s gold. It was my only cardio when I was doing it and the only thing I noticed was walking to my local fishing spot which is up a series of very steep hills and I was like “what’s different here?” And realised I wasn’t blowing out my backside. So it definitely had an effect on my wind. I’ll probably get back into his stuff at some point. I still want 500 navy seals one day.

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C i also am interested because I would like to increase work capacity to an extent. “Aerobic base” and all that…

So you want to efficiently utilize aerobic metabolism to continuously produce sufficient energy to the working muscles to do extended work. Again, steers me towards LISS for a base (most all of your work for a little while, 4 weeks or so at least, then 80% of your work thereafter), then HIIT or some other type of higher intensity (either higher intensity traditional cardio, or with kettlebell) (20% of your work thereafter).

 

[bluejeff]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone.

Here's an additional question:
When discussing aerobic base, I am thinking not only of "metabolic adaptations," but also (again, like Maffetone has described) conditioning the "supportive muscles" of the body. Let me elaborate a bit. Maffetone's idea (IIRC) was that building an aerobic base was not only a biochemical process, but one that built those processes within the muscles being used. He called them "postural," or "support" muscles if memory serves right. In other words, endurance might be built by training slow twitch muscles to last linger via aerobic adaptations within the muscles themselves. Sort of like how we know that you can build an aerobic base biking, but then get crushed when you try to go for a jog/run. The muscles are being used differently.

So while I do want heart and lung adaptations, I guess I have been thinking about the training styles in question (SA/burpees, etc) as a means towards more "full body endurance." Instead of heart, lungs, legs, I am thinking heart, lungs, legs, arms, back, etc....

Would that be more of a Strength Endurance protocol? Or could that be acheived "aerobically" via SA/burpees?

I'm going to try some of these things out; I just was curious to peoples' thoughts and experiences training.

 

[pet']

Hello @bluejeff

What @Anna C said is gold here: 80% of LISS (Z1-2) and only 20% of HIT (Z5).

You can consider "endurance" two different ways, even if they can more or less merge at some point:
- cardio vascular endurance
- muscle endurance (sometimes also called local muscular endurance).

You can build cardio vascular endurance (meaning the "aerobic base") using plenty of tools: step ups, running, biking, cycling, etc... There is not necessarily a transfer from an activity to another because the SAID principle applies. Plus, every "tool" (running, etc...) has a specific technique. As times goes by, you improve your technique and become more efficient.

For a while, I was able to do jumping rope for 1h+ without stopping. Nonetheless, I was not able to run 1h+. My legs just gave out, but my lungs / heart was just fine...

Local muscular endurance can be build several ways:
- high rep sets with low weights
- low reps and "high sets" (indeed, strength transfers very well to muscle endurance as a by-product).

IW-style of conditioning can be a good "compromise" if you are not preparing for a specific event (rowing, etc...) which requires you to have a good technique. Burpees are a tool. As such, you'll improve your technique as you do them. Usually, walking and hiking are very natural. So using burpees as a conditioning tool for this is fine. Indeed, it will make you work on your core, shoulders, arms, etc...

Doing burpees using A+A has drastically improved my trail running and my boxing game as well.

In general, the idea is that if one wants to run a marathon, one is obliged to run to correctly perform (and not barely finish)

Again, if you are not preparing something, you do not need tons and tons of volume. For instance, my "roadwork", as I explained above, which also includes a few sprints (fartlek style then) is enough for giving me a 50bpm RHR.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[bluejeff]

@pet' thanks. There's nothing specific I am preparing for; I would just like to expand my fitness into other areas. I think at some point I'll get back to some light jogging; I just haven't yet. I think it's a "skill" that is generally useful and I would hate to NOT have if I needed it for something.

I think some of what I am looking for with this aspect of training is "preparation for unforseen circumstances," whether that is moving furniture or being able to move in an emergency. I also want to build some of this as a base as I start to get towards middle age.